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 Post subject: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 5:48 pm 

Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:02 pm
Posts: 761
Location: South of London
*Disclaimer* Well I went for Push in the end. Look to the quote at the end of this first post for a comprehensive breakdown of the pros and cons that I considered.
Thanks to all who participated and hope this helps others.


Original Query
I was almost completely sold on the forthcoming Push controller until I saw this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnP1RM788Z4&feature=youtube_gdata_player

It seems pretty comprehensive and is what I've been trying to do with my MPD32 since I got it.

The Maschine is really enticing, not only for the amazingly sensitive jelly pads but for that mouseless workflow that humbnumb/emptysea keeps banging on about. (unfortunately the more someone seems to go on about something the more I resent their viewpoint. Pigheadedness on my part)

The answer to my questions related to the Maschine Plugin for Live might just tip me in it's favour.

    Can the Plugin instance of Maschine within Live still record from any Audio source and assign to Pads in realtime while the audio is playing back?

    How many instances of Maschine are people able to run before things start to turn sluggish? is there a need to run multiple instances?

My comp specs:
i7-2600 @3.40GHz, Win7 64-Bit, 16Gig RAM

cheers


Quote:
There are pros and cons to choosing either controller. This is a list of things UNIQUE to each.

Maschine
Pros
  • Fully hands on workflow (but see below)
  • Excellent sampling workflow from the hardware.
  • Great integration with it's own Libraries.
  • 8 Gig Library.

Cons
  • Fully hands on workflow? = limited arrangement capability.
  • Limited Octaves when wishing to play melodies/harmonies etc.
  • Will have to work destructively (i.e. baking your MIDI to Audio) when making the switch to a full DAW for further editing. Presuming you want to keep automation etc.
  • Can't be modified in the same way Push can.

Push
Pros
  • Works really well for sketching out ideas and variations to build a song.
  • Is integrated into Live so your automation and MIDI notes are already in the clips.
  • Is highly moddable, meaning missing features can be fixed with user scripts. Looking at Stray and the amazing PXT-Live.
  • Access to several octaves for pad work is a joy to me. I always felt so hindered by 16 pads and haven't used my keyboard since getting Push.
  • Touch Sensitive Encoders are a joy to use. Only recording Automation when you touch the encoder is a really nice touch.

Cons
  • The Live API seems unfortunately hobbled and as a result there is a limit to what can be controlled through user scripts. Having said this there is still a LOT that you can control.
  • There are currently a lot of inconsistencies and workflow holes on the software side. e.g. the Delete button can't delete loops in the Drum Rack, you can only delete ALL MIDI notes on a pad in the clip or the whole clip itself. & why can't we hold Duplicate to copy/paste a clip into any slot we want?
  • Lack of sample chopping workflow from the controller is a bit of a missed trick imho.
  • Lack of 64 Drum Rack pads or with default Push.
  • Browsing could be SO much better on Push. Preview of samples should be automatic while scrolling through them.

This isn't meant to be a definitive list of features, they are just the ones that seem so glaring to me and are supposed to highlight the differences between the controllers.


Quote:
Here is a list of the things I personally feel is missing from Push MKI

  • Sample Recording/Chopping workflow. <-click
  • Arrangement Record Workflow & Tools Similar to PXT-Live.
  • Browser Sample/Instrument Preview.
  • Browse & Insert MIDI Clips from hardware.
  • Assign other parameters to the Touch Strip.
  • 64Pad DrumRack Mode
  • Monophonic Melodic Step Sequencer. <-click
  • Per Step Automation for Effects on Audio Tracks.
  • Control over more than 16 Bars (drumRack) & 8 Bars (Melodic) Step Sequencing.
  • Much better use of existing buttons:
    • in Session View, hold Duplicate & Click a pad to select a clip.. click another pad to copy to that pad.
    • in DrumRack, hold Delete & press a Loop Length Control button or a range to delete only MIDI notes within that range.
    • Accent Button, press to access a Mode (similar to pressing Scales) which brings up a page of controls for customising Accent Mode. This mode is quite in depth and requires more explanation than this but any user of PXT-Live will understand what I mean.
  • Realtime Swing mode per track, using the dedicated Swing button.
  • Integration of the fantastic Parameter Mapping changes made by TomViolenz & co <-click


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Last edited by panten on Tue Jan 28, 2014 11:13 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 9:18 pm 

Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2010 6:19 pm
Posts: 2883
Location: I love Neukölln
panten wrote:
I was almost completely sold on the forthcoming Push controller until I saw this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnP1RM788Z4&feature=youtube_gdata_player

It seems pretty comprehensive and is what I've been trying to do with my MPD32 since I got it.

The Maschine is really enticing, not only for the amazingly sensitive jelly pads but for that mouseless workflow that humbnumb/emptysea keeps banging on about. (unfortunately the more someone seems to go on about something the more I resent their viewpoint. Pigheadedness on my part)

The answer to my questions related to the Maschine Plugin for Live might just tip me in it's favour.

    Can the Plugin instance of Maschine within Live still record from any Audio source and assign to Pads in realtime while the audio is playing back?

    How many instances of Maschine are people able to run before things start to turn sluggish? is there a need to run multiple instances?

My comp specs:
i7-2600 @3.40GHz, Win7 64-Bit, 16Gig RAM

cheers


I'm one of those Maschine fans, so consider my answer accordingly.

I think what is/will be better depends very much on what you specifically want to do.
You want those fancy keyboard modes to never hit a wrong key again, a step-sequencer with 32 steps in one view and a clip launcher in one. Push is the way to go.

You want loading, mangling, step sequencing of samples, plus step sequencing of almost every parameter of every loaded plug-in without ever touching the mouse. Maschine is the way to go.

Something in between? Well there it might get a little more difficult...Sorry for not being more helpfull :oops:

I think you should consider the prices as well.
For ca. 600€ each, you get Maschine with its full software, while you get only a lite version of Live with Push. So you should check if this will be enough.

For your questions:

Quote:
    Can the Plugin instance of Maschine within Live still record from any Audio source and assign to Pads in realtime while the audio is playing back?


I don't work this way, but I don't see why this wouldn't work. So my guess is: yes.

Quote:
    How many instances of Maschine are people able to run before things start to turn sluggish? is there a need to run multiple instances?


You can run as many as your CPU allows, but I don't think that this is necessary at all, as each instance will have almost as many possibilities as a whole DAW.
If you need to do this though you should consider that the Maschine hardware will always only control one instance of the plug-in. In the others you would have to work with the mouse. There is unfortunately no on the fly switching of the controller between different instances of the Maschine plug-in

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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 9:35 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2012 12:52 am
Posts: 435
,


Last edited by krizgainz on Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:15 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2009 3:02 am
Posts: 3494
Location: Menasha, Wisconsin
You can switch between instances you hold shift and hit step if I recall.

And live sampling in Maschine can be pretty flexible but I think I'd need more details, and to try a few things at home to confirm.

It is REALLY good at sampling though.

Are you talking, sampling external sources like mic or instrument? Or sampling from other channels within Live?

In standalone mode it has input select when sampling. When used as a plug in, it has something similar, but I think it relies on the DAW. Worst case scenario, you would send any channel of Live into Maschine. But yeah, when you sample. That clip is right there, in your possession. Pretty unique feeling.


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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:21 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:36 pm
Posts: 67
Location: Los Angeles
Push... Push it... Push it real good... besides... like someone mentioned earlier... famous people use it and THAT alone makes it oh so good (Push it). (I'm not being paid by Ableton)... well maybe I am. No real way to tell.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmCU7svjXg4

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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 6:46 am 

Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2010 6:19 pm
Posts: 2883
Location: I love Neukölln
yur2die4 wrote:
You can switch between instances you hold shift and hit step if I recall.


Wow, cool. I didn't know. Might come in handy some day :D

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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 6:47 am 

Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:05 am
Posts: 257
Location: Seattle
I was having this debate myself recently between Push the Mpc Ren and Maschine. I chose Maschine for the following reasons

- Mature software. Live is Mature but its not built with Push in mind and Push was built to build on what Live is but it is no where near as fluid as Maschine is especially when it comes to using vsts. You can edit, tweak, recall, various vsts and outside of Maschine sounds in Maschine with the controller if you set it up. Push doesn't do this with live and I don't know if it will. I am not willing to wait and hope. Plus I have not seen anything Push can do in Live that Maschine cannot do in Live with the templates. And the Mpc Ren just doesn't work right.

- Midi templates for multiple programs. I can use Maschine as a control surface for Reason and Live as well as use it stand alone. I don't think this is possible with Push and its not possible with the Ren. The Mpc Ren is meant to be a stand alone controller for its own broken software.

- Price. Maschine just offers the best bang for your buck. That is fact. If Push was a $300-$400 controller then sure I might give it a go but at $600 Maschine just offers a lot more in terms of features and ability from what Ableton has told us about Push. Push is designed to control Live devices, clips, mixing, be a piano, and step sequencer. You can call up vsts with Push, you can't warp loops with Push, and a few other things that I cannot think of right now. Maschine does this for the same price.

That is all I can think of right now there were more reasons but those were the main ones.I was on the fence too and I bought Maschine this week because for me it made the most sense.

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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:34 am 

Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2006 5:37 pm
Posts: 269
To be honest, that video at the top of the page really turned me off machine. He spent so much time just setting things up. Very little actual music production. My 1st priority is to eliminate the things that get in the way of achieving something and this just looks like more unproductive distractions.

PUSH looks miles better for controlling Live but Maschine is obviously a much more versatile device.

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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:12 am 

Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2012 12:29 pm
Posts: 118
JMFOne wrote:
To be honest, that video at the top of the page really turned me off machine. He spent so much time just setting things up. Very little actual music production. My 1st priority is to eliminate the things that get in the way of achieving something and this just looks like more unproductive distractions.

PUSH looks miles better for controlling Live but Maschine is obviously a much more versatile device.


It doesnt take any time at all! Maschine can be set up for pre Live 9 in minutes. Sure, it will take longer than Push and no doubt it will take a bit of learning to familiarise with it but as a controller, it genuinely took me little longer than the length of the video to be up and running.

The marketing behind Push has been excellent. It has nearly had me sold umpteen times since it was announced and will no doubt nearly grab me again in the future but when I sat down and really thought about it I realised I didnt need Push. Of course it would be nice to consolidate a few things and I dont doubt it will be a great bit of kit but with my 49 key x-station and Maschine Im pretty well covered if I can just get the finger out and build a custom template around that set up which will suit. PLan to do so when the new laptop comes - still dont know how I'll be transferring everything over! Also, with my iPad I really have no excuse to get something like Push just now. Another controller would just get in the way.

Everyone has something they love about Maschine but for me I find it absolutely invaluable when Im in a rut. Ableton is great for workflow but sometimes you just get a mind blank. Swithcing to Maschine's standalone mode and limiting myself to just that bit of kit and I'm more often than not back in the game.

Anyway, if I didnt already own Maschine I guess it would be more difficult to decide. I dont do much sampling so that part of the software is lost on me but you have bigger pads, it can be used to control anything, comes with a nice sample library and Massive and, per above, I dont need 64 pads to work as a keyboard (though it does look handy with Push!). I also rarely use step sequencers so again, not a big deal.

Like most things, I dont think anyone here can make up the OP's mind on this one. Just do a pros and cons and one will tick more boxes than the other. Price is a huge factor though!


Last edited by J0n35y on Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:15 am 

Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2012 12:29 pm
Posts: 118
What I shouldve added is the one thing that video did do is make me want a MKII! I was never sold on the coloured pads before but for controlling Live it would be pretty handy! Also, keep the Mikro in mind. You lose some knobs but if you arent super hands on it could save you £/$'s. As will the second hand market for MkI's (obviously!).


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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:38 am 

Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2006 5:37 pm
Posts: 269
Just to add abit of spice to the debate, I just found this!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrFvXcIg ... =endscreen

It's the first vid I've seen of it when someone is actually playing on it and not just explaining the functions.

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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 3:07 pm 

Joined: Sat May 16, 2009 2:21 pm
Posts: 1076
Location: Paris
Ive Been saying the same thing now everytime someone ask the question :
Both controllers are very good.
If you want to do extensive sampling without touching the mouse, go with maschine.
If you are more of a VSTs guy, doing everything in midi, go with push.
If you have komplete 8 and want to access all it's library with a push of a button, go with maschine.
If you plan on using ableton suite library a lot, go with push.

If you have absolutely no controllers, not even a midi keyboard, I suggest you go with push. Writing melodies with 16 pads is not the best.


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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 3:44 pm 

Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2004 4:23 pm
Posts: 6473
Location: Seattle, WA.
JMFOne wrote:
Just to add abit of spice to the debate, I just found this!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrFvXcIg ... =endscreen

It's the first vid I've seen of it when someone is actually playing on it and not just explaining the functions.


Push looks like a whooper of a controller. It's HUGE!

...maybe it's just the video angle

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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 4:11 pm 

Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2006 5:37 pm
Posts: 269
The Carpet Cleaner wrote:
Ive Been saying the same thing now everytime someone ask the question :
Both controllers are very good.
If you want to do extensive sampling without touching the mouse, go with maschine.
If you are more of a VSTs guy, doing everything in midi, go with push.
If you have komplete 8 and want to access all it's library with a push of a button, go with maschine.
If you plan on using ableton suite library a lot, go with push.

If you have absolutely no controllers, not even a midi keyboard, I suggest you go with push. Writing melodies with 16 pads is not the best.


Thats a really good assessment. 1 thing I would add is that I think PUSH has more scope for features in the future, what with more pads etc. Machine is limited in that regard.

I'd also advise never to get one straight away or on pre-order cos like anything noone has actually tried them out yet. They are also bound to have bugs at the start too, never be an early adopter lol.

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 Post subject: Re: Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 8:29 pm 

Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:24 pm
Posts: 32
kevwestbeats wrote:
I was having this debate myself recently between Push the Mpc Ren and Maschine. I chose Maschine for the following reasons

- Mature software. Live is Mature but its not built with Push in mind and Push was built to build on what Live is but it is no where near as fluid as Maschine is especially when it comes to using vsts. You can edit, tweak, recall, various vsts and outside of Maschine sounds in Maschine with the controller if you set it up. Push doesn't do this with live and I don't know if it will. I am not willing to wait and hope. Plus I have not seen anything Push can do in Live that Maschine cannot do in Live with the templates. And the Mpc Ren just doesn't work right.

- Midi templates for multiple programs. I can use Maschine as a control surface for Reason and Live as well as use it stand alone. I don't think this is possible with Push and its not possible with the Ren. The Mpc Ren is meant to be a stand alone controller for its own broken software.

- Price. Maschine just offers the best bang for your buck. That is fact. If Push was a $300-$400 controller then sure I might give it a go but at $600 Maschine just offers a lot more in terms of features and ability from what Ableton has told us about Push. Push is designed to control Live devices, clips, mixing, be a piano, and step sequencer. You can call up vsts with Push, you can't warp loops with Push, and a few other things that I cannot think of right now. Maschine does this for the same price.

That is all I can think of right now there were more reasons but those were the main ones.I was on the fence too and I bought Maschine this week because for me it made the most sense.


here is my take on Push vs Maschine......

-IMO I don't think you can even begin to compare Maschine to the combination of Live/Push.....Push controls almost every control every aspect of live and Push isn't really building on what Live does it's just simply the controller for Live that people like myself have been asking for, a hands on controller for Live. Recalling everything you mentioned is just as easy with Live's new browser search and setting up racks of your VST's and recalling them is super easy. There is no comparison for the software Live is wayyyyy ahead and is the complete package with Push, it doesn't get more intuitive than this combo studio or stage. NI has a lot of work to do on the software side seriously they just got time stretching lol and putting songs together on it is a nightmare, if this is Push on version 1 mannnn NI better step it up quick.....Akai has no hope lol

-Pricing seems to fair value because the fact that ableton is a full DAW, even if you purchase Maschine and dont use Ableton at some point your still going to need a DAW to professionally mix and record if you plan on working with ex. Pro Tools etc.... Warping clips is simple as drag and drop if you have it set up to auto warp all taking a few seconds if you wanna loop or slice to a drum rack or change the tempo. I personally don't buy into bang for your buck type of products, Komplete 8 is one of those products but IMO everything in that bundle is subpar at best outside of Kontakt and it being expandable with other 3rd party libraries. I would rather have a library of the best synths and samples vs. having a sub par bundle.

I think it really gets down to how you want to work..... personally I wanted a DAW/Controller combo that could take me from start to finish of a project and allow me to bend audio and really push the envelope and for me Ableton is that. I know we all want to get away from using the mouse and looking at the computer but IMO I think the combo of Live & Push is the perfect balance of that. The computer is the center of everybody's studio and unfortunately there is no getting around looking at the screen & mousing, the thing is to not do it to create from start to finish.

I'm excited about Push my preorder is locked in and like I said you can't compare Maschine to it and vice versa there some things that Maschine does very well but its all based on your needs and mannnnn I needed PUSH!


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