Sitting on the Fence - Push or Maschine

[yur2die4]

Yeah, but is your single note with expression an all in one solution with mouseless workflow? Yeah, that's what I thought. 250+ftw

[deva]

I could play with Push only for an hour last week at a friend but it looks definitely like an instrument, not a controller like Maschine which only excele at drums.

It is hard to see Maschine as an instrument for me because it only has 16 pads... which is also why many people see it as mainly for drums. 16 is not enough for playing melodic instruments effectively... Maschine is good solid hardware, but the 64 pads on Push is what makes it able to function as an 'instrument' for me

I have to chime in about this whole instrument vs. controller thing. It is hard to see Push as an instrument for me because it only has 64 pads which makes it a controller compared to the 256 pads on my monome.

Yeah, but your monome is not velocity or aftertouch sensitive so it is not an instrument, just a giant telephone keypad

[blinkeye]

The number of pads or whether the pads are velocity/aftertouch sensitive are not at all what makes something an instrument for me. It's all about the actual experience of playing a hardware instrument, compared to a controller like Push that would force you to constantly click around with a mouse on a computer screen. The experience of using Maschine is the closest thing in a software environment to playing a hardware instrument.

[lo.key]

The number of pads or whether the pads are velocity/aftertouch sensitive are not at all what makes something an instrument for me. It's all about the actual experience of playing a hardware instrument, compared to a controller like Push that would force you to constantly click around with a mouse on a computer screen. The experience of using Maschine is the closest thing in a software environment to playing a hardware instrument.

it comes down to what you do with it, not how you do it. (im not even going to rise to the absurdity of saying that the push will 'force you to constantly click around with a mouse on a computer screen'). Its an instrument if you can make expressive music with it. Plenty of folks have done so with very limited technology, the maschine is no godsend, neither is the push. They are a bunch of buttons. They can become an instrument if used well. End of story.

[gnurf]

Plenty of folks have done so with very limited technology, the maschine is no godsend, neither is the push. They are a bunch of buttons. They can become an instrument if used well. End of story.

Exactly. If you're not shaping your own stone/wood/glass/metal tools to make music you're already a lesser person, and shouldn't knock any other plastic/metal devices people might have found appropriate for THEIR noisemaking.

Harry Partch would probably not approve of any of the tools we use ;)

[artpunk]

The number of pads or whether the pads are velocity/aftertouch sensitive are not at all what makes something an instrument for me. It's all about the actual experience of playing a hardware instrument, compared to a controller like Push that would force you to constantly click around with a mouse on a computer screen. The experience of using Maschine is the closest thing in a software environment to playing a hardware instrument.

....ummm, this: a controller like Push that would force you to constantly click around with a mouse on a computer screen.
~ where did this idea come from? The idea of Push is to avoid exactly that by integrating the controller as much as possible with the software.

I agree with the posts above however, its not about the equipment, it's about what any individual can do with it.

[Tone Deft]

a Maschine fanboy that doesn't know Push.

I've had mouseless BCR sessions, it's not all that hard to get there, a lot of it depends on what you want to do.

[yur2die4]

I've gotta say. I just noticed a major benefit for Push, which I actually take for granted from using Live

The Session View is hands down fucking amazing. And the features they have Push for session manipulation are pretty great. But most of all, Session View, both scenes and clips (or 'patterns') are all represented on one single layout. No switching.

There of course still is the whole, instrument playing/pattern triggering situation..

[humnumb]

....ummm, this: a controller like Push that would force you to constantly click around with a mouse on a computer screen.
~ where did this idea come from? The idea of Push is to avoid exactly that by integrating the controller as much as possible with the software.

Based on the well-documented fact that Push does not allow for a mouseless workflow because it only focuses on having access to a narrow subset of Live's features. Push is not an all-in-one controller with total control over every feature of Live, especially for those who'd rather not use a mouse or those who want to be able to sample and chop in Drum Racks from the hardware. From Ableton's Push Q&A thread:

"Is there any way to quickly duplicate pads on Drum Racks from the Push controller?"
At the moment, no.
"will the push be able to slice audio to midi"
Not currently.
"and assign warp markers on audio? therefore allowing one to chop samples without a mouse?"
Not currently.
"when creating drumracks containing m4l samplers, do I need to write a loadmess into the buffer objects with a reference location to the audiofiles, or can I make patches with dropfile and use push browser to find the audiofiles I want to use with the patch? If that does not work would maybe a push compatible dropfile or similar object be a good idea, so you can use push to load samples into m4l"
I doubt it, we can't load audio files from Push currently, but your wish is noted.
"Will it be possible to press a clip on Push with midi or audio data and duplicate it to another by pressing on a vacant pad?"
We don't currently support copying and pasting clips
"Is there any sequencing of regular midi tracks? Or just drum rack tracks?"
Currently there is only step sequencing of drum rack tracks.
"When using Push in a more generic midi mode, to control a range of parameters which we have mapped, such as panning, effects, etc for a DJ set, will we still get the corrosponding labelling on the Push display?"
I think you mean remote mapping the User mode on Push? I don't believe we are able to update the display with custom mappings.

You can already tell from Ableton's answers that there will be a long list of Live's controls that cannot be controlled from Push, including for example, accessing the mixer or the sends of Drum Racks because they are not available with Live's control surface support.

Here's just some of the many things that Push simply cannot do:

- sample into Drum Rack pads from Push.
- show things like waveforms on its display since it's only text-based, not graphical.
- slice samples from the hardware
- add/remove slices from the hardware
- step sequence regular midi tracks from the hardware
- browse and load audio/clips from the hardware
- duplicate Drum Rack pads from the hardware
- edit start/end points for unwarped audio clips from the hardware
- make multiple selection of notes from the hardware
- automap to plugins without having to save them in a different format first
- step automation (aka step parameter locks/p-locks)
- open/close plugins from the hardware
- open a set or even start a new set from the hardware
- copy/paste clips from the hardware
- preview/pre-hear samples in browser from the hardware
- the ability to be mouseless (and even computer screen-less) for pretty much every control of its software
- make custom names to show up in the hardware's displays when used as a midi controller
...etc.

[deva]

The number of pads or whether the pads are velocity/aftertouch sensitive are not at all what makes something an instrument for me. It's all about the actual experience of playing a hardware instrument, compared to a controller like Push that would force you to constantly click around with a mouse on a computer screen. The experience of using Maschine is the closest thing in a software environment to playing a hardware instrument.

I understand that is your preference. For my needs, Maschine fails completely. It is like a guitar with only a couple frets on it. I don't care what other features that guitar might have. Once I see it only has a couple frets it is immediately of zero interest. There is no one answer that suits everyone.

[deva]

....ummm, this: a controller like Push that would force you to constantly click around with a mouse on a computer screen.
~ where did this idea come from? The idea of Push is to avoid exactly that by integrating the controller as much as possible with the software.

Based on the well-documented fact that Push does not allow for a mouseless workflow because it only focuses on having access to a narrow subset of Live's features. Push is not an all-in-one controller with total control over every feature of Live, especially for those who'd rather not use a mouse or those who want to be able to sample and chop in Drum Racks from the hardware. From Ableton's Push Q&A thread:

Blah blah blah

Yes, Push will not suit everyones needs.

Most of the things you list, I would RATHER do with the mouse (or tablet) on screen. I love the big 27" screen I have. I have no interest whatsoever to return to the little displays on my old hardware or on something like Maschine. I like making drum kits in the box. I enjoy sampling my own sounds, and editing them and building a kit. I like creating new presets for my softsynths working on the screen and with mouse (or tablet). These tasks are fast and fluid. I have no frustration or sense of wanting to do it differently.

It is like you are a member of some brainwashed cult and Maschine is your omniscient god... On screen, I can have multiple synths open at once and easily see and edit sounds, layer them, tweak them, sample them and so on. The workflow in Maschine sucks in comparison. I have no interest to see a waveform on Push. I already have a far better display right in front of me.

There is no question that Maschine is better at being Maschine than Push is. If Push were trying to be Maschine, it is unlikely I would be interested in it. I am glad it is something else and I like the design and workflow choices Ableton has made. It's like the Maschine cultists cannot imagine that some people want other things than what Maschine offers.

[panten]

Humnumb you're correct in that there is still a lot you cannot do directly from Push; bear in mind that this is the 1st public iteration and already it seems people are having tons of mouseless/screenless fun with it.
Let's correct a few points you highlighted:

accessing the mixer or the sends of Drum Racks.

nativeKontrol's script MPDRx already allows for this so it's a matter of time before some hacked Push scripts reach the public.

step sequence regular midi tracks from the hardware

I believe this has been hacked

- make multiple selection of notes from the hardware

You can select multiple notes and adjust parameters, nudge etc.

- automap to plugins without having to save them in a different format first

This is possible with a very simple line in the Options.txt

- make custom names to show up in the hardware's displays when used as a midi controller

I believe someone has successfully hacked this to work also.

So if we also take out the biased sensationalism we are left with:

- sample into Drum Rack pads from Push.
- show things like waveforms on its display since it's only text-based, not graphical.
- slice samples from the hardware
- add/remove slices from the hardware
- browse and load audio/clips from the hardware
- duplicate Drum Rack pads from the hardware
- edit start/end points for unwarped audio clips from the hardware
- step automation (aka step parameter locks/p-locks)
- open/close plugins from the hardware
- open a set or even start a new set from the hardware
- copy/paste clips from the hardware
- preview/pre-hear samples in browser from the hardware

Not bad really for the 1st iteration, I think Ableton should really be applauded for this device. There are some pretty unique and clever workflows that will soon become apparent when the masses get their hands on in a few days.
One in particular being selecting different bars of your loop 'on-the-fly' during playback. See this in action and you'll see what I mean. It'll be GREAT in live situations.

*edit*
One aspect of the Push hardware that I do feel slightly disappointed with is the character only display. Was it perhaps an effort to keep the cost down. With the rest of the build quality being so great it seems like a lack of fore-sight. Sorry Abes. I'm sure someone would have found a way to hack the waveform onto a graphical display if the screen was more future proof.

[yur2die4]

So, Push can load Maschine as a vst into a new channel in Live, right?

[skatr2]

AFAIK, push can't load third party VSTs in default formats from the push controller. You need to encase them in an ableton rack for push to see them.

[blinkeye]

- sample into Drum Rack pads from Push.
- show things like waveforms on its display since it's only text-based, not graphical.
- slice samples from the hardware
- add/remove slices from the hardware
- browse and load audio/clips from the hardware
- duplicate Drum Rack pads from the hardware
- edit start/end points for unwarped audio clips from the hardware
- step automation (aka step parameter locks/p-locks)
- open/close plugins from the hardware
- open a set or even start a new set from the hardware
- copy/paste clips from the hardware
- preview/pre-hear samples in browser from the hardware

I guess it all depends on how you look at it but they all seem like quite a list of some glaring omissions to me.

One aspect of the Push hardware that I do feel slightly disappointed with is the character only display. Was it perhaps an effort to keep the cost down. With the rest of the build quality being so great it seems like a lack of fore-sight. Sorry Abes.

Agreed. No hack can fix that one.