Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Discuss music production with Ableton Live.
skatr2
Posts: 450
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:38 pm

Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by skatr2 » Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:54 pm

maky355 wrote:I can't grasp why they don't allow us to use windows folder shortcuts and why oh why we can't simply stop indexing??

Just make it optional ON, or OFF and be done with it..Everyone pleased..
hate to break it to you but they already started this is not an option.

H20nly
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Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:15 pm
Location: The Wild West

Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by H20nly » Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:46 pm

skatr2 wrote:
maky355 wrote:I can't grasp why they don't allow us to use windows folder shortcuts and why oh why we can't simply stop indexing??

Just make it optional ON, or OFF and be done with it..Everyone pleased..
hate to break it to you but they already started this is not an option.
yeah, it was in this very thread... explained by Ableton staff.

there were multiple posts about it, if i'm not mistaken.

3dot...
Posts: 9996
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:10 pm

Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by 3dot... » Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:31 pm

tsk tsk tsk...
Image

androids
Posts: 70
Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2006 6:12 am

Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by androids » Thu Mar 28, 2013 8:49 am

drez wrote:
maky355 wrote:I can't grasp why they don't allow us to use windows folder shortcuts and why oh why we can't simply stop indexing??

Just make it optional ON, or OFF and be done with it..Everyone pleased..
I'm just guessing, but I would assume its because...they can't :-)

IMO, Ableton made a decision to move to the embedded database for browsing. Period. They did not architect the new browser to accept the previous method of browsing. It is "wired", if you will, to the database. The UI, the underlying methods to retrieve this file locations in Live and display them to you, etc. Its just not there. There's no "switch" to flip. They would have to re-architect and re-code the browser, something that would take a considerable time and resources. Architecture changes and these decisions happened months ago and they take months to change.

They also probably realized during the beta period that they had some massive tuning issues with the embedded database/data model/indexing structure/sql configuration/etc when people with large sample libraries had to insert data into the database. A business decision had to be made:

1. Ableton believes in the new database architecture and feel with proper tuning they can get through these data loading issues.
2. They have to delay the release and rewrite/rearchitect the browser and file management to work in Live 9 like Live 8.
3. A hybrid solution: They tune the database now to alleviate most of the issues with speed and design a way to integrate a Live 8 "like" method of browsing within the Live 9 architecture to fix workflow issues for certain users that like the previous browsing methods.

I think they are going with 3.

Live 9.0.3b1 just came out and the release notes say that they have a bugfix for scanning folders containing a huge amout of files ould take longer than necessary. I think they have changed the way they bulk load data into the database (there are a ton of ways, and well documented ways, to optimize this process). This is a quick win for them (if it works) and then they can focus on rewriting some portions to help with workflow issues.

Just spit ballin ;-)

The solution is plain simple : continue indexing in the background but allow to browse the whole structure even if background indexer has not finished its work ...

If ableton stops at that bugfix :
"Scanning folders containing a huge amount of files could take longer than necessary"

then they are just missing the important point.

skatr2
Posts: 450
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:38 pm

Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by skatr2 » Thu Mar 28, 2013 10:43 am

androids wrote:
drez wrote:
maky355 wrote:I can't grasp why they don't allow us to use windows folder shortcuts and why oh why we can't simply stop indexing??

Just make it optional ON, or OFF and be done with it..Everyone pleased..
I'm just guessing, but I would assume its because...they can't :-)

IMO, Ableton made a decision to move to the embedded database for browsing. Period. They did not architect the new browser to accept the previous method of browsing. It is "wired", if you will, to the database. The UI, the underlying methods to retrieve this file locations in Live and display them to you, etc. Its just not there. There's no "switch" to flip. They would have to re-architect and re-code the browser, something that would take a considerable time and resources. Architecture changes and these decisions happened months ago and they take months to change.

They also probably realized during the beta period that they had some massive tuning issues with the embedded database/data model/indexing structure/sql configuration/etc when people with large sample libraries had to insert data into the database. A business decision had to be made:

1. Ableton believes in the new database architecture and feel with proper tuning they can get through these data loading issues.
2. They have to delay the release and rewrite/rearchitect the browser and file management to work in Live 9 like Live 8.
3. A hybrid solution: They tune the database now to alleviate most of the issues with speed and design a way to integrate a Live 8 "like" method of browsing within the Live 9 architecture to fix workflow issues for certain users that like the previous browsing methods.

I think they are going with 3.

Live 9.0.3b1 just came out and the release notes say that they have a bugfix for scanning folders containing a huge amout of files ould take longer than necessary. I think they have changed the way they bulk load data into the database (there are a ton of ways, and well documented ways, to optimize this process). This is a quick win for them (if it works) and then they can focus on rewriting some portions to help with workflow issues.

Just spit ballin ;-)

The solution is plain simple : continue indexing in the background but allow to browse the whole structure even if background indexer has not finished its work ...

If ableton stops at that bugfix :
"Scanning folders containing a huge amount of files could take longer than necessary"

then they are just missing the important point.
nothing is ever as simple as you make it sound. they flat out said a browser is not going to be implemented outside of the indexer. period. chances are they can't allow this functionality without impacting the indexer.

DoubleDub
Posts: 6
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2010 8:50 pm

Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by DoubleDub » Thu Mar 28, 2013 12:06 pm

drez wrote:
maky355 wrote: 1. Ableton believes in the new database architecture and feel with proper tuning they can get through these data loading issues.
2. They have to delay the release and rewrite/rearchitect the browser and file management to work in Live 9 like Live 8.
3. A hybrid solution: They tune the database now to alleviate most of the issues with speed and design a way to integrate a Live 8 "like" method of browsing within the Live 9 architecture to fix workflow issues for certain users that like the previous browsing methods.
I think they are going with 3.
Yeap, it's my guessing also, and some heads will roll as well since they did not face the problem early enough.
The question is if the architecture they have choosen is capable to find this balance?
As mentioned several times by other guys here, it's the freedom of everybody to follow this new route or to switch to another DAW. I'm on hold with Live9, but I cannot wait with the music production, and before I stuck within 6 months time I made a decision and bought and learn another DAW (guessing? :-))) After 7 years Ableton gave me a hard nugget, so before I listen to 40min harddisc noises everyday, I go parallel.

pencilrocket
Posts: 1718
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2010 10:46 am

Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by pencilrocket » Thu Mar 28, 2013 12:52 pm

You can keep using 8. Why 9 or Switch immediately?

androids
Posts: 70
Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2006 6:12 am

Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by androids » Thu Mar 28, 2013 1:01 pm

pencilrocket wrote:You can keep using 8. Why 9 or Switch immediately?
64 bits and Push ...

skatr2
Posts: 450
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:38 pm

Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by skatr2 » Thu Mar 28, 2013 3:00 pm

androids wrote:
pencilrocket wrote:You can keep using 8. Why 9 or Switch immediately?
64 bits and Push ...
64 bits is on 8 now. from what I understand, the reason push works with live 9 and not with 8 its partially because of the database. so essentially you just need to see where your priorities lie.

sp0bjogu
Posts: 59
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 6:19 pm

Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by sp0bjogu » Thu Mar 28, 2013 6:10 pm

H20nly wrote:yeah, it was in this very thread... explained by Ableton staff.

there were multiple posts about it, if i'm not mistaken.
Link, or it didn't happen.

drez
Posts: 551
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2003 10:23 pm
Location: United States

Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by drez » Thu Mar 28, 2013 6:11 pm

androids wrote: The solution is plain simple : continue indexing in the background but allow to browse the whole structure even if background indexer has not finished its work ...

If ableton stops at that bugfix :
"Scanning folders containing a huge amount of files could take longer than necessary"

then they are just missing the important point.
One wrinkle I see with this: Say Ableton allows you to add something in the project that you browsed to outside of the database and Live continues to index in the background. How does Live then change those references to what is stored in the database after indexing is complete?

What if they could get the indexing down to a few minutes or less instead of many many minutes? Would that be acceptable?

There are best practices for inserting thousands and thousands of rows of data into a database and lots of them depend on different things: how many index's you have so that when you add a record, does it also update those index's at the same time or does it insert the data and THEN reindex? What do you do with record updates? How about reads? Are their queries optimized and do they read with no lock (dirty reads) or do they lock while reading and now the table can't index because another process locked the table?

There are sooooo many scenarios. The important thing is there are TONS of resources available for database optimization. Its just data. Lots of people make a living off tuning and creating better database models. Ableton can get, and I'm sure IS getting, the resources they need to make this work.

That said, has anyone tested 9.0.3b1 to see the difference?
http://www.soundcloud.com/dreznicek
MacBook M1 Pro Max, 64Gig RAM, 4TB internal SSD, Live 11, Push1/2/3, Reason, VST O'Plenty

drez
Posts: 551
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Location: United States

Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by drez » Thu Mar 28, 2013 6:14 pm

sp0bjogu wrote:
H20nly wrote:yeah, it was in this very thread... explained by Ableton staff.

there were multiple posts about it, if i'm not mistaken.
Link, or it didn't happen.
Here
http://www.soundcloud.com/dreznicek
MacBook M1 Pro Max, 64Gig RAM, 4TB internal SSD, Live 11, Push1/2/3, Reason, VST O'Plenty

su
Posts: 199
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2009 6:09 am

Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by su » Thu Mar 28, 2013 7:22 pm

sp0bjogu wrote:
H20nly wrote:yeah, it was in this very thread... explained by Ableton staff.

there were multiple posts about it, if i'm not mistaken.
Link, or it didn't happen.
:roll:

if you were my neighbor I'd come click the mouse for you

sp0bjogu
Posts: 59
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 6:19 pm

Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by sp0bjogu » Thu Mar 28, 2013 11:54 pm

drez wrote:
sp0bjogu wrote:
H20nly wrote:yeah, it was in this very thread... explained by Ableton staff.

there were multiple posts about it, if i'm not mistaken.
Link, or it didn't happen.
Here
Great, thanks!

H20nly
Posts: 16057
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:15 pm
Location: The Wild West

Re: Live 9 browser NIGHTMARE !!!

Post by H20nly » Fri Mar 29, 2013 4:47 am

su wrote:
sp0bjogu wrote:
H20nly wrote:yeah, it was in this very thread... explained by Ableton staff.

there were multiple posts about it, if i'm not mistaken.
Link, or it didn't happen.
:roll:

if you were my neighbor I'd come click the mouse for you
:lol:





thanks drez.

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