Is it normal if...

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
stevemac
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Is it normal if...

Post by stevemac » Thu Jun 06, 2013 7:54 pm

I import a track from beatport / itunes / wherever into Live, with fader set to 0db yet most tracks are clipping over the master output anywhere from 2-7db!?

I use the clip gain to bring them down so they peak just below 0db on the master, so that hopefully all my tracks in a set have a similar peak with the fader at 0db.

No plugins that cause additional gain on the channel or the master.

???

evon
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Re: Is it normal if...

Post by evon » Thu Jun 06, 2013 8:28 pm

This could be as a result of the use of different metering systems in each instance, or at least one instance during the process you describe. Read up on K-Metering>
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sowhoso
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Re: Is it normal if...

Post by sowhoso » Thu Jun 06, 2013 8:49 pm

whatever the problem is, it's nothing to do with K-Metering. those are mastered tracks

nbinder
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Re: Is it normal if...

Post by nbinder » Thu Jun 06, 2013 8:57 pm

Which warp mode are you using? Set it to repitch...

evon
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Re: Is it normal if...

Post by evon » Thu Jun 06, 2013 9:06 pm

sowhoso wrote:whatever the problem is, it's nothing to do with K-Metering. those are mastered tracks
Which is exactly what the metering sytstem deals with...headroom. The more hesdroom the softer the track yet more dynamics.
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Donnie
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Re: Is it normal if...

Post by Donnie » Thu Jun 06, 2013 9:22 pm

Do you have an eq 3 on the channel? I stopped using it a long time ago, but it used to send my peaks flying...

stevemac
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Re: Is it normal if...

Post by stevemac » Thu Jun 06, 2013 10:12 pm

This happens before any warp mode is set.

EQ3 on there but when I take it off the same still happens.

Cross fader!?
I've just changed it's type and the output has changed. Confused as to what setting I should default to!?!?

EDIT: Hang on, it only changed with one of the curve types and when fully on far left or right it is clipping again, so it;s not this.

evon
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Re: Is it normal if...

Post by evon » Fri Jun 07, 2013 1:48 pm

sowhoso wrote:whatever the problem is, it's nothing to do with K-Metering. those are mastered tracks
Why is it that some mastered finished projects (CD's for example) sound louder than some. And in some cases extremely louder. How do you explain that? And all of them are at 0dBFS
IMO the answer lies in how the headroom is utilized. It is really a tradeoff between the Dynamics and RMS. K12 metering systems will probably facilitate the loudest mix possible in the digital domain (without clipping that is).
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stevemac
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Re: Is it normal if...

Post by stevemac » Fri Jun 07, 2013 2:10 pm

Are you saying I can change the metering system on ableton and then they probably won't be clipping?

Confused and concerned that I'm doing something basic wrong here.

evon
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Re: Is it normal if...

Post by evon » Fri Jun 07, 2013 2:20 pm

I have never really had that problem so I didn't have any reason to check on Live's metering system, but I know there are persons on this forum who will pop in and let us know how to solve the metering problem and get the consistency you need throughout your workflow.
Also, you could do some research online and in the Live manuals and let us know what you come up with.
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Da hand
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Re: Is it normal if...

Post by Da hand » Fri Jun 07, 2013 3:17 pm

evon wrote:
sowhoso wrote:whatever the problem is, it's nothing to do with K-Metering. those are mastered tracks
Why is it that some mastered finished projects (CD's for example) sound louder than some. And in some cases extremely louder. How do you explain that? And all of them are at 0dBFS
IMO the answer lies in how the headroom is utilized. It is really a tradeoff between the Dynamics and RMS. K12 metering systems will probably facilitate the loudest mix possible in the digital domain (without clipping that is).
Sorry Evon, but you are missing the point of the original post. You are talking about compression vs RMS levels. Live shows Peak levels. The OP's Peak levels are going over 0 dBFS on the master when completed songs are imported into the project.

For the OP, did you convert the files from a different format? What format did you import the track in? When files are converted into different formats peaks can rise. This happens more or less often depending on how the tracks was compressed / limited at the mastering stage.

Also, I don't know how Live's audio engine exactly treats samples at the 0dBFS boundary, but most likely if there are enough samples in a row at 0dBFS then Live treats the whole group as a signal over 0dBFS.

Lastly, like mentioned before, any warping and/or effects in the signal chain will affect the levels as well.

Donnie
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Re: Is it normal if...

Post by Donnie » Fri Jun 07, 2013 3:40 pm

stevemac wrote:This happens before any warp mode is set.

EQ3 on there but when I take it off the same still happens.

Cross fader!?
I've just changed it's type and the output has changed. Confused as to what setting I should default to!?!?

EDIT: Hang on, it only changed with one of the curve types and when fully on far left or right it is clipping again, so it;s not this.
So if you drop a track into a channel with no warping and absolutely no effects on the channel chain or master chain, it still peaks over zero? You are absolutely positive that there nothing is on the the channel or master chains that could be coloring the sound, even if it seems like those effects should be transparent and not cause additional gain?

Sorry to repeat, but I really want to emphasize/clarify this.

Donnie
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Re: Is it normal if...

Post by Donnie » Fri Jun 07, 2013 3:47 pm

Other things to check real quick:

Channel 'Audio From' are not defaulting to an 'Ext In' channel that may add to the sound (mic input channel perhaps?)

Sends and Send Effects

Tarekith
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Re: Is it normal if...

Post by Tarekith » Fri Jun 07, 2013 4:13 pm

Warping with Complex or Complex Pro can cause clipping, even if the project tempo is identical to the clip tempo. Ditto using EQ3 as mentioned.

With warping off, the channel fader set to 0, and no effects on the track, it should be impossible to clip.

Oh wait, was this an MP3 you dragged into live, or a wav file?

stevemac
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Re: Is it normal if...

Post by stevemac » Fri Jun 07, 2013 4:36 pm

MP3 320s!

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