Egypt

[Forge.]

Aren't you unemployed?

Yes. What the fuck has that got to do with the price of fish?

This:

You do not understand the concept of worker because you are not one.

[Forge.]

Peasants rent a small piece of land and grow food to eat. .

how many peasants are there in England?

[Jack McOck]

Tell you what though, you just make up random definitions and terminology off the top of your head Forge, and I'll use ones understood by most of the world's population and still used by serious commentators.

Qualify "most" and "serious", as used in this sentence.

[lowshelf]

Interesting disc. Agree the labels don't fit comfortably nowadays. But it's weird that they fitted quite well just 30 years ago. Strange how things have changed. Anyway I just wanted to say there are tons of peasants around as I'm always riding into them. Folks sleeping under canal bridges round here. Degree educated and what-not. Folks living in caves up nearer Funken's neck of the woods. F---ing caves.

[Forge.]

Peasants rent a small piece of land and grow food to eat. .

how many peasants are there in England?

Virtually zero, obviously. Peasants are a feudal phenomenon, and feudalism was abolished after the bourgeois revolution, ie the civil war, in which the capitalists took power.

So... in otherwords no longer relevant? And wait... they stopped being relevant after the capitalists took power, but they're still included in the list of 4 groups along with the capitalists? how does that work?

Tell you what though, you just make up random definitions and terminology off the top of your head Forge, and I'll use ones understood by most of the world's population and still used by serious commentators.

you mean like "poor" or "99%"?

[Forge.]

Interesting disc. Agree the labels don't fit comfortably nowadays. .

I tripped out for a minute then and thought you'd started talking about CDs in the wrong thread

[Forge.]

well I'm going to throw something really crazy into the works and suggest that most of them don't know or care that they are peasants.

And I'd probably avoid telling someone they are a peasant too.

Anyway, we've gone well beyond the reason we are arguing this point—which is your insistance that the only cure to the worlds problems is for these "workers" to rise up in some kind of young ones benefit gig. In fact I really can't help seeing you as Rik in this episode: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDNPt8Fy ... age#t=441s

[Forge.]

Poor can include any class, it means a certain income. 99% is a number.

see I think this is what pisses me off about it. Maybe I've been spoiled living in Australia, but I only ever hear the word "class" in the UK.

In Australia there are only bogans and everyone else. Bogans are probably some kind of cross between what you would call workers or peasants, but the defining features are really more to do with social and cultural things, not economics. Actually, they are a bit like Chavs, but with different fashion sense.

Some people are rich, which means everone generally hates them, but nobody really calls them "capitalists" or "upper class", just rich bastards.

[Jack McOck]

Tell you what though, you just make up random definitions and terminology off the top of your head Forge, and I'll use ones understood by most of the world's population and still used by serious commentators.

Qualify "most" and "serious", as used in this sentence.

Not you

Interesting how both you and Myrnova hold such strong beliefs, yet are both completely incapable of substantiating them. Is this how you expect to win all debates—by simply repeating ad infinitium?

[Forge.]

I am trying to tell you how the world actually is, and I'm not clinging to anything.

You cannot make sense of the world if you do not differentiate between employers and employees, and if you lump everyone who is not in the top 1% together.

thank you funken for telling me how the world actually is.

Imagine you had a government that only acted in the interests of people who own large companies, and acted against the interests of their employees. Let's take it to extremes to highlight things. Let's say they banned all strikes and trade unions, and the employers reduced wages to half of what they are now, but prices stayed the same. So you could only get a half of what you used to get with your wages. Let's say this meant you had to choose between heating or food.

Yep, this is how the world actually is, at least for a lot of people in the Uk now I hear since the Tories got in.

[myrnova]

Peasants rent a small piece of land and grow food to eat. .

how many peasants are there in England?

Virtually zero, obviously. Peasants are a feudal phenomenon, and feudalism was abolished after the bourgeois revolution, ie the civil war, in which the capitalists took power.

In England, maybe? In Italy the so-called "latifundium" (landlordism) still exists in the south. Sometimes it is even worse, the servants are not even peasants, they have become slaves (african immigrants). In the third world, parts of south america, asia and africa peasants are still many.

In Italy people like Forge are called "workers". There is no need to work in a factory to be called "a worker".

[Forge.]

It's muddled thinking about class that allows people like Nazis or Tories into power, it's extremely dangerous, by the way.

so you think people should all just accept their lot, that they are either an alpha, beta, gamma or delta, otherwise the Nazis will sneak in again?

[Forge.]

A bit like Peter Andre.

is that your attempt at getting me back for the Rik comment?

Don't worry, I've been a massive Rik fan for over 20 years

[lowshelf]

Funk I guess you brought this up in the context of Egypt, where it prolly fits better, so sorry if folks are twisting your melons. But a model where workers includes non-workers and self-employed (myself included) are petty bourgeois? Its basically only fit for describing the model itself. It's a Lego train track. A pre-Thatcherite Lego train track. With original box (worn at edges).

In England, maybe? In Italy the so-called "latifundium" (landlordism) still exists in the south. Sometimes it is even worse, the servants are not even peasants, they have become slaves (african immigrants). In the third world, parts of south america, asia and africa peasants are still many.

In Italy people like Forge are called "workers". There is no need to work in a factory to be called "a worker".

Great post myrnova! (Tick)

[lowshelf]

Not all self employed are middle class. It can get tricky when you start trying to figure out what class a particular individual is in. The concept of classes is there to give you an overview, an analytical tool, not to describe an individual.

Fair enough I have another question but it's too hot to sit here. Maybe later.