does anyone use their hardware keyboards.....

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
Sebastian
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does anyone use their hardware keyboards.....

Post by Sebastian » Tue Mar 29, 2005 1:36 pm

and its sounds /tone generators to record MIDI?

IF so, can you pls advise hot to deal with patch selection and how Live handles remembering patches on next session etc

This has been a challege in Live
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MrYellow
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Post by MrYellow » Tue Mar 29, 2005 1:40 pm

eh?

Audio to midi?

Using non-midi keyboards?

-Ben

elemental
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Post by elemental » Tue Mar 29, 2005 2:12 pm

AFAIK you can store prg numbers etc in a clip so it will switch when played.

I've not used this yet, usually just find the sound I want, process to taste and record when ready.

Sebastian
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Post by Sebastian » Tue Mar 29, 2005 2:22 pm

Im trying to record MIDI only into MIDI tracks in LIVE

more specifically, when I used to use Sonar, there were INS files created for all keyboards which would map out asll the keyboard sounds names and program number. You could thus select the program name within Sonar. In Live, it seems I cannot select my keyboards patches by name within Live, only by bank or patch numbers. Also, in the case of my keyboard, its very 1st program # in any of its banks is always #0, while Live's 1st program number is always #1. Which means all of my keyboards program numbers are set off by 1. So if say Jazz Bass is program #1 bank A in my Korg, in Live it seems I have to select it as #2
follow me?
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djastroboy
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Post by djastroboy » Tue Mar 29, 2005 3:27 pm

Sebastian wrote: Also, in the case of my keyboard, its very 1st program # in any of its banks is always #0, while Live's 1st program number is always #1. Which means all of my keyboards program numbers are set off by 1. So if say Jazz Bass is program #1 bank A in my Korg, in Live it seems I have to select it as #2
follow me?
Not unique to Live. You'll find this confusion in many sequencers, hard & soft.
I've been fighting this plague since 1980-something.
My only solution has been a hand-written conversion chart tacked on the wall.
You think the "off-by-one" problem is bad, wait till you get deep into choosing banks. Your pain has only begun.

Sebastian
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Post by Sebastian » Wed Mar 30, 2005 3:58 am

so does the bank chooser in Live, once set for song "x" will always know to bring up that patch? really?
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Pilgrim
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Post by Pilgrim » Fri Apr 01, 2005 6:04 pm

djastroboy wrote:Not unique to Live. You'll find this confusion in many sequencers, hard & soft.
I've been fighting this plague since 1980-something.
My only solution has been a hand-written conversion chart tacked on the wall.
You think the "off-by-one" problem is bad, wait till you get deep into choosing banks. Your pain has only begun.
Amen, Brother, Write the Words on the Walls :lol:

Yes, I use external sound generating/playing devices.

This brings up a very old and wide-spread problem, how to save time “setting” up to “play/record” tones/samples into “phrases/clips/audio tracks” and record MIDI also.

I have totally quit using bank/patch setups in-track to select sounds (unless I am using a MIDI sequencer specifically written for the specific tone generator, as in XGWorks3 for any XG instrument like my MU-100R or Sebastion’s SW1000XG).

I churn out lots of music in the form of both audio and MIDI phrases/loops and I have lots of gear to do so (in fact, almost the same gear/software that Sebastian uses.)

I use “no-note user-SONGS” as multi-track setups/templates. (“as” templates) While some of my sound producing gear has built-in sequencers with “user-TEMPLATES,” there are more slots for user-SONGS than templates AND, to me, “templates” are used as style-specific starting points to create “no-note user-SONGS” from, to be used, perhaps, as TEMPLATES, but “no-note user-SONGS” are always “Project specific” and saved with the “Project” in its PROJECT FOLDER.

Simply put: In LIVE!, I set up one MIDI track to play the Korg Karma (using only the Triton tone engine, not the Karma function, just turn it off) and set up an audio track to record/play the audio from the Karma!
The setup for the sound is done IN THE KARMA, not remotely from the LIVE! MIDI track. The LIVE! MIDI track sends note/controller MIDI on a specific channel to the Karma.
Any tweaking/selection of sounds is done on the Karma panel using a sequencer user-song (for multi-channel play) and that song is saved for easy setup.

Of course, to use several sound devices (external or internal) you must have one MIDI port (set of MIDI I/O) dedicated to each sound module/device. . .
. . .and either turn off receiving/transmitting anything but note specific data to or from the Module (including SYSEX, except during setup measures to call the Song in the Module sequencer.)

Remember not to change-and-save any “sound patch”, use the sequencer channel to make any sound quality changes/effects and save the sequence. Korg factory patches (programs/combis) can be overwritten and/or moved, maybe other manufacturers also?

If your external sound device has NO SEQUENCER, use a separate computer MIDI file for the setup, dumping setups by song or track FROM the device to track OR. . .
Dedicate enough “no-note” PROJECT MIDI tracks as setup to dump to and load back to the device. (Use separate no-note tracks so to manipulate them without endangering any music playing data).

Basically, make changes by hand at the device panel and save the changes for the project elsewhere in some convenient place (for you) to recall. Be sure to save any changes/backups/versions to that place.
THEN figure out how to speed up setup, possibly using device specific SYSEX to “call” the “no-note User-SONG” in the device.

The best way to keep things under control while playing/creating (not setting up) is to filter the MIDI input of the sound device so that you cannot accidentally send something from the computer sequencer, etc. and disable the MIDI output back to the computer (keep “local on”)

I use a separate keyboard to “Play” the track, not the sound generating keyboard. If you must use local off do so but carefully. Best way to monitor playing without latency is to leave local on, record MIDI in the computer and don’t send it back . Later, record audio using the computer sequencer track to play its MIDI track.

After the setup, only note/play specific data from sequencer track to module should be allowed.
I use MIDI-OX (several copies loaded) and virtual MIDI ports for lots of isolation and conversion of MIDI).

If you say that this defeats (or ignores) the supposed capabilities of the sequencer program to setup/control sound sources other than plug-ins, you are right.
It becomes too much work if you use more than one brand of external device and even using two identical Korg devices here, I still use my method.

Funny how modern automation SETUP brings complications that defeat creativity. Mix and match old and new, manual and automatic to preserve YOUR creativity !!!!!

I love knobs and buttons. . . and now touch-screens. . .

. . . and two wheeled transportation devices. . .

Pilgrim John

Pilgrim
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Post by Pilgrim » Fri Apr 01, 2005 6:06 pm

To avoid latency, I always monitor external sound generators directly, not via computer sequencer track.
P

Liam
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MIDI

Post by Liam » Sat Apr 02, 2005 3:39 pm

I use two methods to record MIDI patch names etc

The easiest is to name each clip with the Synth / Patch name / number etc Usually just the Patch name / number is sufficient

Or

Push the midi patch number on your synth as you start to record that to the clip

You can also do the latter later with Overdub enabled in LIVE

The second method is what you are looking for I think.

You can also set up MIDI clips with just the Patch info already recorded and select as required - think ahead and set up template files of MIDI patch clips for your next session.

darcyb
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Post by darcyb » Sat Aug 06, 2005 4:12 am

Pilgrim, that was a fantastic post. I could relate to it completely when comparing Roland's 'performance' settings. I have having to save to floppy my user config of performances, so I'm trying to use Live's bank/program stuff.

Does anyone know what bank or sub-bank numbers on Live 5 trigger Group User, Group A, Group B, Group C and GM on Roland gear? I can't seem to get my Roland XP-60 to bank switch. Program changes are fine, but not banks. I recall using an old version of Protools LE that accessed the banks properly with weird bank-subbank combos of 80-0, 80-1, 81-1, 81-2 respectively, but this doesn't work in Live 5. It's as if the algorithm for building the Hex code, (or LSB-MSB whatever it's called) needed to do bank select is different.

darcyb
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Post by darcyb » Sat Aug 06, 2005 4:13 am

I think I'll do my own bank/sub/patch selection while recording and see what Live sees...

darcyb
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Post by darcyb » Sat Aug 06, 2005 4:24 am

Figured it out! Live 5 only retains one single bank/program selection, and it's the last one you do while recording some.

And I was on the right path with my 80-1 bank selection business. Live uses 1 instead of 0, so I just had to subtract 1 from all my discoveries in ProTools LE, which mapped from 0-127 (as is my most common experience) unlike Live 5 that maps 1-128.

Damn I'm happy now. :) Fixed my own woes.

darcyb
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Post by darcyb » Sat Aug 06, 2005 4:37 am

Bah, I take that back. I managed to get the Roland XP-60 to quit using the number 80, and start from 1 (0 to the synth = 1 to Live) (in MIDI settings, edit the 'group 1' values and in performance midi settings, change Tx bank from 'patch' to 'group 1', but although it will record and assign the bank/subbank/patch values to the midi clip, accessible via clip view, changing those values doesn't transmit to the Roland to switch bank/program. It's as if the clip view shows the b/sb/p data, but doesn't transmit it. It only ever transmits the program change.

Pilgrim
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Post by Pilgrim » Wed Aug 10, 2005 1:27 pm

darcyb wrote:Bah, I take that back. I managed to get the Roland XP-60 to quit using the number 80, and start from 1 (0 to the synth = 1 to Live) (in MIDI settings, edit the 'group 1' values and in performance midi settings, change Tx bank from 'patch' to 'group 1', but although it will record and assign the bank/subbank/patch values to the midi clip, accessible via clip view, changing those values doesn't transmit to the Roland to switch bank/program. It's as if the clip view shows the b/sb/p data, but doesn't transmit it. It only ever transmits the program change.
Darcyb,
While I do not exactly know what is happening with your particular setup, I do understand the frustration.
I suggest that you need to know exactly WHAT each device/program is sending and exactly WHEN it is sending it.
Then, of course, depending upon what you have it connected to, you can determine what is happening and then what you want so you can go back and send the proper STUFF!

The <my> answer is MIDIOX www.midiox.com !!

Get it! It is FREE and everyone/anyone who has situations such as yours has it.

MIDIOX is a simple looking program that takes up very little <room> on your computer and several/many can be loaded at once.
Although MIDIOX can do many things, the most important thing is to actually SHOW you what is being sent by a program or device <by inputting into MIDIOX’s MIDI input>.
Once you SEE in MIDIOX what is being sent, then you can unhook it and feed that input into your receiving program device fully knowing WHAT IS BEING SENT.

You can, of course, <chain> MIDIOX in the input or output of any MIDI device or program and leave it there to monitor what is being sent/received.

For instance, if you want to know what is being sent to your Roland synth to set up it’s sounds, and, you have done it with another program/device <known working setup>, you simply put MIDIOX in the MIDI path being sent to your synth and LOOK AT IT <read it>.
Then, hook MIDIOX to the output of LIVE and send what it sends and LOOK AT IT <read it>.
Compare the two until you get agreement and you have a sure function.

To <hook up> MIDIOX, simply open the input screen in MIDIOX and choose the input port, same with output. . .
BUT. . . that only works with physical ports on your computer. You can hook to any outboard device easily. To hook to any software device, it seems reasonable to send the MIDI to a physical output port and actually run a MIDI cable to another input port <separate MIDI I/O> and loop the MIDI signal back into the computer.

This is why this process is often called <loop-back>. There is a better way using a virtual MIDI port, a device driver that provides MIDI I/O between software without looping outside the computer and therefore requiring extra normally unused physical MIDI ports.
There is a virtual MIDI port device driver program provided either with MIDIOX SE or separately at the MIDIOX site. It is called MIDI-Yoke or something like that.

There are several such device drivers available FREE on the web. KORG, SONY/Sound Forge have these and there are others. Google for them.

I currently use one called Maple MIDI port virtual device driver. Google it to find.

MIDIOX will do many other neat things to MIDI data, check it out.

As to what LIVE or any Roland gear is sending/expecting, that’s another story/discussion but, LIVE perhaps has limitations that are imposed because it is intended to be used <LIVE>.

You see, certain MIDI functions implemented in a device or software are PROPRIETARY meaning <their version only> therefore the term <System Exclusive Message> meaning exclusive to that/their particular device/program.

Bank and program changes are supposed to be fairly universal LOL !!!
But. . . often bank changes take a bit of time to implement and therefore cause short time delays in the played music so perhaps, knowing this possibility, Ableton has limited bank changes to loading of a clip and does not send them while playing.

That outta give you something to think about and spend time on. Any time spent learning to use MIDIOX will not be wasted.
I have been using it and virtual MIDI drivers for YEARS !!

Using MIDIOX either fixes a problem or gives information for you to fix, concerning MIDI connections/messages.

Pilgrim

darcyb
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Post by darcyb » Wed Aug 10, 2005 1:34 pm

Thanks Pilgrim! I would LOVE to be able to see what MIDI messages are being sent/received. It was one of my favorite features of an old Amiga sequencer called Bars & Pipes. Maybe MIDIOX will fill the gap!

I'm also tempted to export the clip as a midi clip, load it in Logic and poke around in there too.

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