DRUM RACK VS INDIVIDUAL AUDIO SAMPLES

[mholloway]

I use drum racks for everything drum+perc related...

BUT..

if Ableton would allow audio clips to be nested within a larger "container" clip (which, ahem, Bitwig apparently will do) I would consider doing a lot of drum work this way. For doing fills in particular, I really like having the visual represenation of the samples rather than a piano roll. I used to use Cubase, and it has great functionality for building big clips containing multiple audio files, which can then be moved around arranged with ease. Would Love to see that in Live...like REALLY love to see that in Live.

[aldred09]

If it hasn’t happened already, I’m sure the rest of this thread is going to lead to the OP’s mind being blown and his previous preference for dropping samples in the arrangement is going to seem archaic.

It has happened already! I'm sure my lack of drum rack experience is evident, but that is the beauty of the forums! You guys have opened my eyes to a whole new array of tools for my productions.

[beats me]

I’ll use audio for things like fx builds or reverses because seeing the peak of the waveform helps you to place it better, but for things like a crash cymbal I don’t see any advantage, literally or figuratively, in using audio. Plus keeping it in MIDI allows you to change the sample quicker if it’s not working well with the mix.

For drums I also like some form of step sequencer as opposed to piano roll, a lot easier to place and remove hits. Tapping in beats is great too but I'm not a great finger drummer and can only come up with the most basic beats. Maybe once you’ve got a beat you’re happy with in a step sequencer move it to piano roll to humanize it a bit.

[TomViolenz]

I’ll use audio for things like fx builds or reverses because seeing the peak of the waveform helps you to place it better, but for things like a crash cymbal I don’t see any advantage, literally or figuratively, in using audio. Plus keeping it in MIDI allows you to change the sample quicker if it’s not working well with the mix.

For drums I also like some form of step sequencer as opposed to piano roll, a lot easier to place and remove hits. Tapping in beats is great too but I'm not a great finger drummer and can only come up with the most basic beats. Maybe once you’ve got a beat you’re happy with in a step sequencer move it to piano roll to humanize it a bit.

I don't quite get the difference here. Pushs step sequencer works with DrumRacks- ergo in the Piano roll Midi clips.

[beats me]

I’ll use audio for things like fx builds or reverses because seeing the peak of the waveform helps you to place it better, but for things like a crash cymbal I don’t see any advantage, literally or figuratively, in using audio. Plus keeping it in MIDI allows you to change the sample quicker if it’s not working well with the mix.

For drums I also like some form of step sequencer as opposed to piano roll, a lot easier to place and remove hits. Tapping in beats is great too but I'm not a great finger drummer and can only come up with the most basic beats. Maybe once you’ve got a beat you’re happy with in a step sequencer move it to piano roll to humanize it a bit.

I don't quite get the difference here. Pushs step sequencer works with DrumRacks- ergo in the Piano roll Midi clips.

I don’t have Push and don’t plan to get it, mostly because I switched to Logic and my APC40 quickly collected dust after I got it. It’s cool but just not the way I work, probably great for live performance which I don’t do. And really for me Push would have to be 16 notes across and not just eight for full bar drum sequencing.

There’s drum plugins that come with a built-in step sequencer. There’s just something more visually appealing for my eyes about turning notes on and off in a distinct box as opposed to drawing in notes on a mostly open grid. Also many of the plugin step sequencers allow you to apply effects using the same box format. It’s just the way I like to work.

[Matt_Quinn]

I imagine Drum Racks is good for genres with complicated beats such as drum and bass, but for House I can't really see any advantage for me. The disadvantages are:

1. Not being able to use Track Delay.

You can use track delay on drum racks.

[turnitto11]

I do a little of both in my projects, but for my core drum sounds, I'm using drum rack. Might throw extra crashes, kicks, claps, and percussion on other tracks. Drum racks make it lots easier to layer drum samples. If I have 2-5 layers of snare drums, each having their own track starts taking up lots of screen space, having a drum rack puts them all in one nice convenient location. And I have to remember to adjust the fades on each sample because Live automatically puts about a 4ms attack time on samples put into arrangement view, drum rack skips the fades things so I get the full attack and punch of my sample right away. Having the ability to adjust velocity is convenient as well without having to automate volume. And sometimes having the ability to adjust attack/decay/sustain/release on drums is handy to give new textures and to not make drum rolls sound like shit from the same exact sample stabbing you in the ear over and over again.

[aldred09]

I do a little of both in my projects, but for my core drum sounds, I'm using drum rack. Might throw extra crashes, kicks, claps, and percussion on other tracks. Drum racks make it lots easier to layer drum samples. If I have 2-5 layers of snare drums, each having their own track starts taking up lots of screen space, having a drum rack puts them all in one nice convenient location. And I have to remember to adjust the fades on each sample because Live automatically puts about a 4ms attack time on samples put into arrangement view, drum rack skips the fades things so I get the full attack and punch of my sample right away. Having the ability to adjust velocity is convenient as well without having to automate volume. And sometimes having the ability to adjust attack/decay/sustain/release on drums is handy to give new textures and to not make drum rolls sound like shit from the same exact sample stabbing you in the ear over and over again.

I cant even adjust things like velocity. I just have to play it in with velocity sensitive pads until it sounds right because of the live 9 mouse issue. It goes all crazy when i try to adjust anything at all and i havent found a solution anywhere. Velocity is probably the worst thing for me to try and adjust. In arrangement view with audio tracks and samples, i can automate that a little better as long as i hold ctrl while i drag.

[TomViolenz]

I’ll use audio for things like fx builds or reverses because seeing the peak of the waveform helps you to place it better, but for things like a crash cymbal I don’t see any advantage, literally or figuratively, in using audio. Plus keeping it in MIDI allows you to change the sample quicker if it’s not working well with the mix.

For drums I also like some form of step sequencer as opposed to piano roll, a lot easier to place and remove hits. Tapping in beats is great too but I'm not a great finger drummer and can only come up with the most basic beats. Maybe once you’ve got a beat you’re happy with in a step sequencer move it to piano roll to humanize it a bit.

I don't quite get the difference here. Pushs step sequencer works with DrumRacks- ergo in the Piano roll Midi clips.

I don’t have Push and don’t plan to get it, mostly because I switched to Logic and my APC40 quickly collected dust after I got it. It’s cool but just not the way I work, probably great for live performance which I don’t do. And really for me Push would have to be 16 notes across and not just eight for full bar drum sequencing.

There’s drum plugins that come with a built-in step sequencer. There’s just something more visually appealing for my eyes about turning notes on and off in a distinct box as opposed to drawing in notes on a mostly open grid. Also many of the plugin step sequencers allow you to apply effects using the same box format. It’s just the way I like to work.

I def hear you on the 16 step per row step sequencer. I would probably like Push even more if it was an array of 16 x 8 buttons. As 16th notes is the best resolution for drum sequences. But since nudge is implemented quite well, it's not so bad to have a full bar of 8th notes and do the rest with nudging, by holding a step and turning the knob. This even has the slight advantage, that you can nudge freely without the grid. Giving it the humanized feel.
I do wish they plan of releasing such a controller like this though. In my dream it would be focused on the arrange view, could work on different tracks at the same time (8 tracks of 16 steps each) and could work together with Push controlling Session.
With the 16x8 matrix over different tracks, they could even implement giving you 8 different instruments in key mode with 16 keys each (with the scale plug as they implemented it for Push, that's almost 2 octaves)
Imagine being able to play 8 different instruments on the same device at the same time )
Doubt it will happen though.

On the other hand, a step-sequencer in software only without a controller is useless IMO.

[TomViolenz]

I imagine Drum Racks is good for genres with complicated beats such as drum and bass, but for House I can't really see any advantage for me. The disadvantages are:

1. Not being able to use Track Delay.

You can use track delay on drum racks.

That's obviously not what he meant. He wants to do track delay for each pad independently. And the pad tracks don't have independent track delay.

[Synthbuilder]

I do one of two of two things and neither of them are drum racks. I still prefer to use Impulse for most of my basic patterns. And then augment this with individual tracks with a Simpler in each.

[Matt_Quinn]

I imagine Drum Racks is good for genres with complicated beats such as drum and bass, but for House I can't really see any advantage for me. The disadvantages are:

1. Not being able to use Track Delay.

You can use track delay on drum racks.

That's obviously not what he meant. He wants to do track delay for each pad independently. And the pad tracks don't have independent track delay.

Well, I was responding to what he said, I have no idea what he meant. I was just clarifying for anyone who might think what he said was in fact true. If you want it on each pad, then just use a simple delay on each pad.

[antarktika]

Well, I was responding to what he said, I have no idea what he meant. I was just clarifying for anyone who might think what he said was in fact true. If you want it on each pad, then just use a simple delay on each pad.

I think you may have a basic misunderstanding of the purpose of track delay. How do you set a simple delay to -90ms?

[Khazul]

I always found using the samples directly works better for me, one less layer of abstraction in the writing process. And I generally dislike using midi and prefer to work with audio, but that's just me.

You know simpler can be set up to re-produce the audio sample perfectly? ie good enough to phase cancel with original audio - just needs a 1 sample track delay adding to the drum rack/simpler track, envelope set to no envelope, play the midi note for the full sample duration, vel=0%, vol=0dB.

I spent ages thinking I lost something using simpler especially with kicks, so I used to paste a lot of drum samplers as audio (especially kicks) instead of sticking them in a simpler in a rack. After some actual testing I discovered that simpler and the track can be setup to perfectly re-produce a sample in live 9 at least) - oh well

Nice to have the envelope shaping and nice to know for certain that it can play the sample exactly as it was.

[aldred09]

How do i put a drifferent effect on each separate drum sample in the rack and automate them?