Why is there in 2014 still no easy solution for lowlatency?

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
nc2010
Posts: 299
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2010 9:34 am

Why is there in 2014 still no easy solution for lowlatency?

Post by nc2010 » Thu Jun 12, 2014 3:35 pm

(This topic is dedicated to PC laptop users who use the onboard audio chip. Of course Mac users don't have this problem afaik)

I'm using music software and hardware since a long time now, I have used lots of external, internal, firewire, USB, ASIO audio interfaces, etc. Software and hardware have evolved a lot in the past decade. But why is there in 2014 still no easy solution for low latency? :?

Here is a recap of the 2 main solutions for audio devices :
* ASIO4ALL : ok this is a good solution for low latency, BUT, then you cannot open a browser with Youtube, listen to some track outside of Live anymore : ASIO4ALL is NOT multiclient : if Ableton Live uses ASIO4ALL, then no other software can play audio
* MME/DirectX : then the latency is poor.

What are the possible solutions ? Where could it come from ?
* Microsoft in a future version of Windows? I don't wait anymore ;)
* Manufacturers who do the drivers for audio chip
* ASIO4ALL : a future version which would be multiclient ? (ie possible to use AbletonLive and another soft (example:Soundforge) at the same time?

Any ideas are welcome. :)

yur2die4
Posts: 6421
Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2009 3:02 am
Location: Menasha, Wisconsin
Contact:

Re: Why is there in 2014 still no easy solution for lowlatency?

Post by yur2die4 » Thu Jun 12, 2014 3:51 pm

Maybe if specific vendors of motherboards or soundcards had cards dedicated to audio production.


But that market is tiny in comparison to the costs of developing such a product. Mostly because people into audio production usually use their audio interfaces instead.

As for asio4all, I mean, you could try twisting their arm but I don't think they want to risk fiddling with something that already works for what it is intended for. It is like opening a floodgate of potential bugs. You are asking a driver to go from hopping between individual programs, to using several. They would need money. And they'd need to charge for their product.

ilya.soloviev
Posts: 162
Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2009 6:06 pm

Re: Why is there in 2014 still no easy solution for lowlatency?

Post by ilya.soloviev » Thu Jun 12, 2014 6:51 pm

WASAPI...But Live doesn't support it. So its the problem is in software now.
I use also REAPER with WASAPI and i have 7ms latency and full multi-channel audio stream. Works like a charm.

So answering your question: There is a solution...

jlgrimes
Posts: 1265
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2007 1:55 am
Location: Atlanta, Ga

Re: Why is there in 2014 still no easy solution for lowlatency?

Post by jlgrimes » Thu Jun 12, 2014 7:47 pm

nc2010 wrote:(This topic is dedicated to PC laptop users who use the onboard audio chip. Of course Mac users don't have this problem afaik)

I'm using music software and hardware since a long time now, I have used lots of external, internal, firewire, USB, ASIO audio interfaces, etc. Software and hardware have evolved a lot in the past decade. But why is there in 2014 still no easy solution for low latency? :?

Here is a recap of the 2 main solutions for audio devices :
* ASIO4ALL : ok this is a good solution for low latency, BUT, then you cannot open a browser with Youtube, listen to some track outside of Live anymore : ASIO4ALL is NOT multiclient : if Ableton Live uses ASIO4ALL, then no other software can play audio
* MME/DirectX : then the latency is poor.

What are the possible solutions ? Where could it come from ?
* Microsoft in a future version of Windows? I don't wait anymore ;)
* Manufacturers who do the drivers for audio chip
* ASIO4ALL : a future version which would be multiclient ? (ie possible to use AbletonLive and another soft (example:Soundforge) at the same time?

Any ideas are welcome. :)

I think in terms of ASIO alot of it depends on the manufacterer's implementation of the drivers.

I think (but I can't clearly remember) the Presonus Audiobox USB allowed multi-client.



That said when I went to a Mac, one of the things I enjoyed about Core Audio was the Multi-Client nature of it. It was very easy to have Live open and playing the keyboard while you are looking at a YouTube Video.

Donnie
Posts: 810
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2008 3:16 pm
Location: Chicago Suburbs
Contact:

Re: Why is there in 2014 still no easy solution for lowlatency?

Post by Donnie » Thu Jun 12, 2014 7:55 pm

As mentioned, multiclient is an issue for many interfaces not just integrated audio.

The easy solution for both low latency and multi-client is to buy an interface that allows that. Not a good answer for some but that is the reality of things right now.

pencilrocket
Posts: 1718
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2010 10:46 am

Re: Why is there in 2014 still no easy solution for lowlatency?

Post by pencilrocket » Thu Jun 12, 2014 10:37 pm

Because Ableton Live adds default latency in addition to the plugin latency each time when you insert plugin to the chain. It's not because of your environment.
Image

kitekrazy
Posts: 731
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 7:16 pm

Re: Why is there in 2014 still no easy solution for lowlatency?

Post by kitekrazy » Thu Jun 12, 2014 11:28 pm

nc2010 wrote:(This topic is dedicated to PC laptop users who use the onboard audio chip. Of course Mac users don't have this problem afaik)

I'm using music software and hardware since a long time now, I have used lots of external, internal, firewire, USB, ASIO audio interfaces, etc. Software and hardware have evolved a lot in the past decade. But why is there in 2014 still no easy solution for low latency? :?

Here is a recap of the 2 main solutions for audio devices :
* ASIO4ALL : ok this is a good solution for low latency, BUT, then you cannot open a browser with Youtube, listen to some track outside of Live anymore : ASIO4ALL is NOT multiclient : if Ableton Live uses ASIO4ALL, then no other software can play audio
* MME/DirectX : then the latency is poor.

What are the possible solutions ? Where could it come from ?
* Microsoft in a future version of Windows? I don't wait anymore ;)
* Manufacturers who do the drivers for audio chip
* ASIO4ALL : a future version which would be multiclient ? (ie possible to use AbletonLive and another soft (example:Soundforge) at the same time?

Any ideas are welcome. :)
They easiest solution will always be to invest in an audio interface. This is no different than wanting onboard graphics to run the latest games at high resolution.

pencilrocket
Posts: 1718
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2010 10:46 am

Re: Why is there in 2014 still no easy solution for lowlatency?

Post by pencilrocket » Fri Jun 13, 2014 2:25 am

Image
Image

doghouse
Posts: 1413
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2008 5:30 pm

Re: Why is there in 2014 still no easy solution for lowlatency?

Post by doghouse » Fri Jun 13, 2014 2:47 am

The real solution is in having better OS support for audio...a real time OS would be nice, but there's no way that is going to happen so we have to muddle along with whatever we can squeeze out of our interfaces and drivers.

eyeknow
Posts: 5822
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2005 6:16 am

Re: Why is there in 2014 still no easy solution for lowlatency?

Post by eyeknow » Fri Jun 13, 2014 5:47 am

pencilrocket wrote:Image
Something is very wrong with this picture. I have two soundcards, a profire 610 and a focusrite saffire 14. The saffire gets better latency with their drivers than the profire. The liquid 56 uses the same mixcontrol as the one I have so I expect those drivers to be the same.

I think that is either outdated or not telling the whole truth. Still, RME is widely known as one of the best. If this wasn't so completely rock solid I'd consider getting one.

ilya.soloviev
Posts: 162
Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2009 6:06 pm

Re: Why is there in 2014 still no easy solution for lowlatency?

Post by ilya.soloviev » Fri Jun 13, 2014 6:46 am

doghouse wrote:The real solution is in having better OS support for audio...a real time OS would be nice, but there's no way that is going to happen so we have to muddle along with whatever we can squeeze out of our interfaces and drivers.
Have you read what i wrote about WASAPI? There is a better support in Win 7/8 but some software developers just don't support it for some reason...

nc2010
Posts: 299
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2010 9:34 am

Re: Why is there in 2014 still no easy solution for lowlatency?

Post by nc2010 » Fri Jun 13, 2014 7:56 am

kitekrazy wrote:They easiest solution will always be to invest in an audio interface.
I already own some good audio interfaces : MOTU, etc. and I am happy with them in my studio.
But this question here is oriented about a light setup : laptop computer only.
We can nowadays expect lowlatency+multiclient from computers... don't you think so ?
It's like we are still in 2004 in terms of OS' audio management ...
This is no different than wanting onboard graphics to run the latest games at high resolution.
I don't agree at all here. Technically it is possible to have low latency with nowadays computers, and even with computers from five years ago. (See ASIO4ALL that exists since a long time).

It's not a matter of speed of processor (which has been multiplied by a big factor in ten years, but latency of onboard audio chip hasn't evolved), it's just a matter of software/driver.

Is there a feature request for Live supporting WASAPI ?

pencilrocket
Posts: 1718
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2010 10:46 am

Re: Why is there in 2014 still no easy solution for lowlatency?

Post by pencilrocket » Fri Jun 13, 2014 4:55 pm

eyeknow wrote:RME is widely known as one of the best.
Believe the hype? No we don't.
Image

Donnie
Posts: 810
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2008 3:16 pm
Location: Chicago Suburbs
Contact:

Re: Why is there in 2014 still no easy solution for lowlatency?

Post by Donnie » Sat Jun 14, 2014 2:09 pm

RME is like night and day imo, I've owned probably 6 other interfaces from different brands and after getting a Babyface recently I'm a believer. Multi-client? No problem.

akm
Posts: 134
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 9:47 pm

Re: Why is there in 2014 still no easy solution for lowlatency?

Post by akm » Sat Jun 14, 2014 3:42 pm

I was always qurious how the hell it works in games, say, when you click a button you hear the shot sound with virtually no latency - no ASIO drivers needed.

Post Reply