Does L5 track delay work while RECORDING external synths?

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icedsushi
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Does L5 track delay work while RECORDING external synths?

Post by icedsushi » Mon Aug 15, 2005 3:05 pm

Here's a question about track delay with hardware synths, hoping you guys can explain if you're trying to do the same thing. It's a continuation of an earlier post here:

http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic. ... highlight=

To set my sync properly, I'm sending straight 1/4 note midi notes out from a midi track in Live to a hardware synth. Then I'm bringing the audio into live from the synth on an audio track.

The recorded audio file is 36ms late compared to the beat. So I delayed the midi track by -36ms. Now, when I monitor the audio from the synth, it's lined up perfectly with the metronome click. Great.

So I hit arm the audio track and fire a new clip. The recorded file is still 36ms late. I know that I can track delay that audio file by -36 and then it's in sync during playback and rendering. That works, but it's an extra step.

Is there a technical reason that recording a sound file from sent midi can't be synced this way, or should this work the way I want it to?

(see my setup below)
Last edited by icedsushi on Wed Aug 17, 2005 1:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

icedsushi
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Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2005 8:36 pm

Post by icedsushi » Tue Aug 16, 2005 3:54 pm

*** bump ***

No one cares to use this great new feature to sync their HW midi tracks to audio and compensate for midi latency during recording?! 8O

amo
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Post by amo » Tue Aug 16, 2005 4:47 pm

There is one of the lessons in Live dealing with the tweaking of audio latency for external instruments recording. Basically it says to tweak the latency compensation in the audio preferences to solve the problem you are describing.
Go threw that lesson, it's more than worth it !
The track and automatic delay compensation is meant to avoid delays induced by plugins on tracks, for all the tracks to play in sync. The manual delay is meant to compensate any other delay, but not soundcard input delay.... but I could be wrong.
Cheers,
amo
Live 5.0.3 - IBM Thinkpad R51 1.5ghz Centrino - 1,5 Go RAM - 7200 RPM 2nd HDD intern - RME Multiface - Windows XP Pro SP2

icedsushi
Posts: 1652
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2005 8:36 pm

Post by icedsushi » Tue Aug 16, 2005 5:24 pm

Thanks!

Yes, you are right. Track delay is not for soundcard delay and is not to compensate for plugins. My understanding it's meant to compensate for midi response times for hardware or when you send audio out of the interface, process and come back in for recording for example. These are the cases where there are "extra" latencies to compensate for besides the soundcard, plugins or midi clock. To the best of my knowledge, the track delay setting is the only place to compensate for midi note reaction times sent to an external device.

I am assuming the "lesson" is one of the tutorials in the help menu. I will check it out tonight. I didn't know there was anything in there about latency...I thought it was just song building stuff.

Maybe the lesson will explain how to compensate for midi latency (send midi earlier to the synth by a certain ms) like I am trying to get it to do. Funny thing is...the track delay setting will send midi early to the synth during playback and line up with the click perfectly. But, when I try to record that resulting audio there is no benefit of the track delay. The recorded audio file still has the latency.

To be clear...I am always software monitoring, of course (running all audio through live tracks).
Last edited by icedsushi on Tue Aug 16, 2005 5:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

amo
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Post by amo » Tue Aug 16, 2005 5:26 pm

To espand the "lessons" pane, go to the view menu and choose "lessons". There's a link to the lesson I'm talking about on the first page.
Other than that, I donno for your particular prob... I'll investigate if I get time.
Best,
amo
Live 5.0.3 - IBM Thinkpad R51 1.5ghz Centrino - 1,5 Go RAM - 7200 RPM 2nd HDD intern - RME Multiface - Windows XP Pro SP2

icedsushi
Posts: 1652
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2005 8:36 pm

Post by icedsushi » Wed Aug 17, 2005 12:58 am

Ok, I checked it out. That's just a lesson on how to set your overall latency which I've done properly since I started using Live about 2 years ago. The lesson was terrific and very well done, but has nothing to do with adjusting for midi reaction times from an external synth. In fact, just for kicks, I hardwired a loop connection on my soundcard and ran through the lesson to double check my overall latency setting. It's still 4 ms with my Motu828mk2 (which is pretty good BTW!). And that's the setting I put in "overall latency" in audio preferences. I appreciate the replies though amo!

So, I'll rephrase more simply:

Does "track delay" work on midi tracks during recording? It works during playback quite well...but I can't get it to work when recording the same (external in from the synth) audio track into a clip.

I know I can shift the recorded clip by adjusting it's sample start point by the amout of my midi latency. But, I want to know if I can set up my midi out tracks to automatically include the latency so I don't have to readjust every time I record a clip. i assume this is one of the purposes of the track delay setting at the bottom of every track in Live 5.

amo
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Post by amo » Wed Aug 17, 2005 7:27 am

Sorry for the wrong info....
Doesn't it has to do with the monitor option ? Does it change anything to change the monitor option ? (btw, are you monitoring threw Live or using direct monitoring ?).
Last question, do you record in session view by fireing a clip to record or do you record in arrangement view with the general record button pressed ?
Just some "morning" thoughts...
Best,
amo
Live 5.0.3 - IBM Thinkpad R51 1.5ghz Centrino - 1,5 Go RAM - 7200 RPM 2nd HDD intern - RME Multiface - Windows XP Pro SP2

icedsushi
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Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2005 8:36 pm

Post by icedsushi » Wed Aug 17, 2005 1:23 pm

Goodmorning, enjoy your coffee, tea, whatever. :wink:

Like I said in 2 posts ago, I am software monitoring everything. Of course IF I am recording my instruments live, I will monitor direct through the mixer intead.

Not the case here though. Actually, when recording, it doesn't make any difference in this example because the midi notes are programmed with the pencil tool and are coming from Live into the synth. The sound will arrive the same time back into Live as a sound file and the waveform will appear in the same spot in relation to the beat either way I monitor it.

The monitoring selection is only important when the timing of what you hear affects your performance timing. The monitoring won't change the recorded result because I'm not actually "performing" the synth and trying to compensate by playing early, etc.

(Always monitor direct through your mixer when tracking vocals, playing live keyboards/synths, drums, guitar, etc.)

(Always use software monitoring for sequenced and programmed stuff.)

icedsushi
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Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2005 8:36 pm

Post by icedsushi » Thu Aug 18, 2005 2:56 pm

*** bumpin bunny honey ***

Anyone out there trying to sync their HW synths out there w/L5? Anyone?

Alex, can you give me some input?

icedsushi
Posts: 1652
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2005 8:36 pm

Post by icedsushi » Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:25 pm

bumping again

Still hoping I can get the track delay to work on a midi track during recording. (it only works during playback)

I'm sure there are plenty of people who want to do this. Have you all figured it out and working well, so you're not interested in this post? If so, please post how you got it to work. :wink:

Or if this is a technical limitation having something to do with beat 1 when pressing play...

For example...if midi can't be transmitted early (before the first beat) during recording for technical reasons or something I would like to know!

icedsushi
Posts: 1652
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2005 8:36 pm

Post by icedsushi » Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:43 pm

I guess noone has a clue or my topic isn't entertaining enough. Time to send Ableton support an email.

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