Mental Block ?

[phillieh]

Instead of playing, I've been reading threads again ...
I don't want to start any fires, but -
Does any one out there find that Live / Reason / Pick Your Poison ... leads to an extreme mental block when it comes to just making music?
I'm primarily a Mac user, but have used PC's since the days of the IBM-XT.
I have tried to be OS neutral, and have encouraged my children to use "whatever you need to get the job done" - I have had both platforms around since the early 1980's -
I bought into the Mac stuff early on, and have an investment in that platform for music software - not easy to throw away - but time goes on, and updates, newer versions of the OS, incompatibilities, etc. - The software industry sucks us dry, whatever platform we choose. -
The problem I have with Live / Reason / etc. is that I find that it is not much improvement over programs like PG Music's "Band in a Box".
It's easy to set up loops and such .... but in the long run, it only sounds like loops and such ... great to jam to, but ....
I've been a guitar player since I was 14. I'm 52 now, so run the math.
I find that I spend more time turning Live into a "$3000 effects box" than actually making music. Great stuff, fun, rewarding, etc. , but sometimes it's a lot more rewarding to just play without any of the electronic wizardry that we've all been sold.
I read somewhere that the electronic music industry is "selling dreams".
I wish that I could take some of that investment in "the dream" and turn it into something other than a high-tech plaything.
At 52, maybe I should just go away and die - but the dream at 14 to be a musician still lives on. Creativity is in all of our blood and I know that all of you out there want to express your vision, talent, and have a hope to be recognized for what you can accomplish.
So - How do some of you use Live as an integrated tool along with other software in your songwriting?
What challenges you to push the boundaries and get beyond Live ( or whatever ) as your sole "instrument" ?
Sometimes I'm having so much fun during an inspired moment, that I completely forget to punch in and record ... there went that take ...
Maybe it's discipline, but sometimes I feel like it's too much work to set things up, and then the spontaneity is way beyond gone -
I appreciate your comments - Thanks -

[The Hulk]

well, I think there's a large time investment in the set-up of these programs. But really, they're no different than having an actual hardware rig (which might even take longer to setup and create a hell of a lot more mess). Once you've set up the programs to your specifications, you're basically free to be as creative you want. I'm in the process of setting up Reason the way I want it to work with Live...so I definitely understand getting slowed up on creativity. But I think it's worth it because these programs I find, push creativity further than we anticipated it could go. If this isn't the process for you then maybe you're more suited to a band set-up...but Live is great for a loner like me who never has time to coordinate with others...so Live and Reason make me totally self reliant.

[Alex Reynolds]

While hardware is a pretty solid choice, there are a few points in software's favour:

-- much smaller outlay of cash for the same results (cost)
-- much less physical space required for the same setup (living space)
-- can do things with software that are impossible or prohibitively expensive with physical objects (flexibility)
-- can do common, repetitive tasks quickly (efficiency)

These features can be tough to beat.

As far as Live goes, I chain loops through Sends in a feedback arrangement.

But I'm happy to play guitar or use a patch cable on different points on my arms and legs for white noise though a chain of real effects boxes.

It's all about the sound, in the end.

-Alex

[astromass]

i often 'run dry' and the best advice is to switch off yer tv for a whole month...tv sends out these evil little bastard vibes into yer skull and it bleeds yer creativity dry....
damn tv....that and message boards! time is fleeting!@=)

[Credo]

I have different threads running when it comes to making music.

T1 One thread is making more 'normal' or traditional music. These songs 'come' when I take a shower or going for a walk. Text, chords and melodies. To record this I start with Reason and use Live as mixer/recorder.

T2 The other is more into electronic stuff. It usally starts with tweaking my K-Station or finding that groove in Live, adding stuff with Reason. Then developing it to something that is nice listening to. When I loose inspiration the project suffers, so then I stop and do something else.

T1 is not dependent on any tech stuff. T2 is strongly dependent on Live. I have not been able to make anything interesting in other software or any hardware setup.

To sum up: It depends on what you aim for and how you work. I guess Live, in the beginning, was made for electronic music (session view + time stretching ++), but developed for a broader user market. Many people, like me, find it a worthy replacement for Cubase (and others), since its much easier to work with.

C

[helix2048]

I've found Live to be great for DJ gigs, personal and professional recording, laying down ideas and whatever your music needs are. Combined with Reason, it's all one needs for music production. But let's not lose sight of what you mean phillieh, I too get swept up in the moment and tend to miss the record button when I shouldn't.

Like Hulk mentioned - Live and Reason are about making music without buying that expensive mixer, the rack of effects, the 2" reel to reel 24 track recorder, the 1/2" 2 track master reel to reel, the wiring and the room to place all of it. You can multitrack into Live if you use a Delta 1010. In fact, that will give you 8 separate tracks in. Plenty for a drum set, a bass and some guitars.

The point I'm trying to make here is only the user controls the creativity, performance, expression and vision they have for their music. The software is just a means of capturing the magic.

[GT:B]

I think having an MPC around with your computer and guitars ect...Gives you that little extra something tangible to put your hands on play. If you don't have one in your studio, you should think about making the investment.

[phillieh]

Thanks for all of your comments -
I'm back from my day job managing a large network of 130 global sites ...
Pressing the Tab key in Reason to see the wires ... looks a lot like real life to me!

Hulk - I agree on getting things set up in the first place to just hit the switches and be ready to go. I did the band thing many times, and it's frustrating dealing with other people's lives and schedules. Being a loner ( me too ) allows a great amount of flexibility and control, but you lose the feedback from others, and for me, brings out my greatest downfall - perfectionism. I find that I want to tweak things to the point where I'm bored with something that has potential - again the loss of spontaneity.

Alex - Yep - it's all about the sound, and I'm getting a "wall of sound" single-handedly that I never could have conceived of five years ago. But I have all this hardware that I just can't do away with ... so I have to hook it all up, too. Right or wrong, here's this personal studio space where you show off "all your stuff" and to think that it's all really necessary ... the combination of Live and Reason definitely negates the need for the physical stuff. My Wife asks: "So we can get rid of all this stuff now?" ... "No, because I might need it" Mental illness on my part .. not hers.

Astromass - TV Sux - I dumped that years ago ( except for news every once in a while ) - I wish I could find the actual quote from one of the developers of television ... I believe he worked for RCA. When he was asked what the best feature of television was now that it was as widespread as it is, he replied "The Off Switch"
Only so many hours in the day, and when you're a musician, you might as well play!

Credo - Interesting breakdown on your musical processes.
I start out playing guitar, and when the mood is right, I quit replaying stuff that I have already learned, and try something new.
Then that chord progression and loose melody floats around in my head for days, and again, when the mood is right, lyrics pop out.
At that point, I drop whatever I'm doing and write them down.
Creativity is a gift ( I would think we all agree ) - Grab it when it happens.
I think what I was searching for when I started this thread was how to keep the technology from getting in the way of those moments of inspiration.

Helix - I have the Delta 1010 - Great interface - I dumped my MOTU 2408 when I got tired of waiting for drivers for OSX. I think that I have a good setup from everything I've read. But once you have it, you've got to use it!
"If you want something done right, do it yourself" - I'll get there - Thanks

GT:B What are your suggestions on the MPC? - I like the "tangible" stuff, but probably already have way too much hardware - but if investment in something like this is reasonable, I'd look at it - I appreciate your opinion.

Thanks again for your comments, thoughts, and help. - Bud ( phillieh )

[Rx]

When I do complete songs, I find that they seem to write themselves. I get a groove going I like and then the next idea comes, a little vision of what comes next or what came before. Most of the time, I don't get very far, and I just have to leave that song be for another time. On the few occasions where inspiration strikes, most of the work is done over the course of one evening. For example, my track 'Eyes & Whiskers' was written about 6 months apart, with the first half written in one evening, and the second half written on another evening 6 months later (plus a few more days fiddling and trying to write more but not getting anywhere useful).

It depends on whether the tools you use work for you or not. One part is getting sounds you like, the other is whether the software works in an intuitive way for you. I don't use Live for composition or sequencing a song, mainly because I don't use very many loops. I use Cubase SX because I like the way it works, it has a more fully featured sequencer than Reason and I have softsynths that are inspiring. However, I have used Live one on occasion as a songwriting tool, when I had a bunch of loops that sounded good together and no idea what kind of structure to give the track. I was making a mix in Live and threw the loops in and just made a song out of the blue (called 'Descent', in case you wanted to check it out).

[Guest]

Hey Rx -
Thanks for jumping in on this thread -
When creativity strikes, it does seem like the songs "write themselves". That moment of inspiration is ( for me, at least ) impossible to force or plan for. It happens when it happens, and if you can grab the opportunity, you can run with it, or you can waste it.
When I play guitar ( which is my main device ... I have keyboards and drumpads, etc. but my keyboard and drum chops don't cut it in the real world ), I'm usually running it through effects and echo settings that create a rhythmic background to solo over. So I'm getting percussive effects, sustained notes, and so on that sound pretty good to me, and in my mind I hear what the overall composition could sound like if I could split the parts out and then sequenced them somehow.
When you mention getting a groove going, that's where thing's break down in my creative process.
I can mentally hear what I want the basslines and drumtracks to sound like, but trying to find a loop that is even anywhere close to what I want to do just wastes my time, and then the inspiration is gone.
So I feel like I am doing things "bas-ackwards". Conventional wisdom says to lay down the beat and then sync up the bassline to create the groove that the rest of the composition is based on. I get stuck on trying to even get things started.

You're right about the tools working for you. I've bought a bunch of sequencers over the years, thinking that each one would make my life easier. The problem is that the learning curve seems pretty steep. Live is very accessible to make things happen in a very intuitive way, but overall, it's just another tool that is part of the equation.
I'm trying to learn to use it for what it is, but for me, I can't see it replacing a sequencer ( but it sure is getting real close ).
So it's render to disk, and cut and paste, and midi-guitar controlling virtual instruments ...
The tools we have are like staring down the barrel of infinity .. and pulling the trigger.
But it's so much fun, that the seduction can drag us down - But I can think of a lot worse ways to spend my time ...
Thanks for yours! I'll check out your songs ...

Bud (phillieh)

[Rx]

When you mention getting a groove going, that's where thing's break down in my creative process.
I can mentally hear what I want the basslines and drumtracks to sound like, but trying to find a loop that is even anywhere close to what I want to do just wastes my time, and then the inspiration is gone.

Maybe working with Reason or Project 5 would be better - rather than looking for a bass loop, which is like looking for a needle in a haystack, you'd be better off creating your own bassline. Some simple step-sequencing would be enough to keep the ball rolling.

You mention virtual intruments - what do you use?

[dss]

I totally think that "upgradeitis" leads to a mental block.
i have always said: use what you have, stop looking for the next thing...

but that's just not the way this crappy world of our seems to be headed. not in america anyway. i'll try to spare you the diatribe, and stick to the point.

you got gear, it works.

use it!

nothing comes without having to first learn the mental disciplines of sticking to it. it is hard to sit for hours and listen to the same loop over and over working on and imagining where it can and needs to go.
not everyone has the quiet in their minds, or music in their mouths to make it happen like electricity constantly running...

however i have found some wonderful ways to get past blockage, and burnout:

1. edit sounds. sounds lame, but after months of working i find i am burnt and don't want to make music. but if i give in to that and stop my disciplined every day no matter what practice, i get flabby, and find myself quickly slipping out of sight. so i turn to midi editors, and synths, as well as soft synths and soft samplers, and i build drum kits, make 100 pads, try to get that phaze wah clavichord sound to really trip me out.

it helps replenish the dry mind, and leads to some wonderful sounds to use later.

2. switch off the computer and go outside for the afternoon. i know what i just said about discipline, but if i spend the morining working, and meet a friend in the afternoon, maybe pass by a record store, or just sit for a while by myself at a cafe, and then head home and get back to work i find that i am revived.

3. answer the totally non spiritual question: why?
for me, knowing why i am doing something really helps me accomplish it.
i am, by nature, a deeply lazy person. i love to sit and drone out on the internet and not answer the phone. i adore the way it feels when my mind's alpha waves are totally numb. so if i know why i am working, who am i producing the project for, what will i do with it when i get done with it, i am often inspired to continue and complete the idea.

other ideas:
always complete everything, even if 1/2 way through you decide it blows (i sometimes look back in my "new stuff" folder and think "Wow! how did i ever think of that???" even though i thought it was a naf waste of time 1/4 of the way through.)

take a tape deck, dat recorder out into the world with a stereo mic. record everything. when you get home, take the dat and grab every little tiny interesting sound off of it. process the crap out of it and make a travelogue of your ordinary life. a useful bank of sounds for crazy breakdowns... beats the pants off of a sound effects cd.

invite a drummer over for tea. record him/her drumming for an hour.
loop all the cool bits and pitch shift it too. play with reverb. make crazy beats that no one will ever have but you (unless they buy your record.)

go to the thrift store and grab the first 50 records in the rack (DON'T LOOK AT THEM) bring them home and sample them. you'd be AMAZED at the imspirational loops you can find on the lamest records... (see the very best of mac davis)

don't forget to go out to clubs and check out music...

whatever you're into, getting a dose of it from someone other than yourself can also revive thought, or inspire you to work... even if everything out there make you so mad you want to kill someone. don't bitch and moan, certainly don't kill anyone... go home and take it out on your sequencer!

Burn out is, by definition, allowing yourself to lose the real reasons and inspiration that got you headed in this direction to begin with.

hang on to your heroes, and here's to mental flow!

dss

[koranek]

DSS-

You have some fine ideas! Thank you for sharing them.

Koranek

[dirtystudios]

i agree with many of the points here. to hell with t.v., sample the outside world, go for a walk, you don't need more gear (it'd be real easy to follow that last one if they stop making such cool new stuff).

the best advice i've ever heard when it comes to being creative is just sit down and do it. even if you don't feel like it. it's the difference between being pro and being amature. pro's show up every day, rain or shine. amatures wait for inspiration to strike. if you sit down, every day, and work on your art, you will produce. maybe not all the time, but you'll get more accompished than just waiting for the music to happen by itself. inspiration often comes by chance, and chance favors the prepared mind.

somerset maugham was once asked if he only wrote when ispiration strikes or if he stikes to a schedule. he answered, "i write only when inspiration strikes. fortunately it strikes every morning a nine o'clock sharp."

k

p.s. most of this post comes directly from a book i just read called "the war of art" by steven pressfield. i have one of those advance copy things, so i'm not sure if it's out yet, but i strongly recommend it to evreryone here. it say's it should have been out in april. go get it. it's a small easy read so there's no excuse not to pick it up. you can finish it in an afternoon no sweat.

[Rx]

Some great replies here. 'Upgradeitis' is definitely a problem - I used to be psyched to try the newest thing, but my production markedly improved when I pared down my synths and fx to a select bunch. I've gone the other way and installed more than I need now, but I tend to only use certain things repeatedly and having the ability to remove a plugin from view without uninstalling it is also helpful (in CUbase SX).

I also found that some of the best ideas I've had were when I didn't really feel like making music or felt I didn't have a nice block of time to devote to it. I guess my mind was free and what came out was excellent. The track I mentioned earlier, that I finished in 2 halves six months apart, was completed on an evening where I practically fell asleep working on another track. I didn't really want to work on a track since I felt blocked by one already, but I figured I had some time and doing anything else might be a waste of time, so I jumped into the track and *boom* a few little ideas later, the track was done.

I used to think that inspiration would just strike, but I now see that the best thing to do is to just work at it and make sure, above all else, that working on music puts a smile on your face.

Some other things I've started to do when I don't feel like working on music are:
1) do something not related to music at all - taking a walk, reading, cooking
2) do boring things, like edit sounds, edit loops
3) listen to music for the fun of it, putting on something that makes me happy

And the best thing to do when working on a track? Try different things - noodle with ideas. Play "What if." What if I did this or that? I find playing often sparks an idea.

One thing someone mentioned that I agree and disagree with is 'Finish everything.' I think you should try to finish everything, but if you're stuck, leave it alone until you're curious about listening to it again.