Okay - I've got to come clean ... the guest previously known as "phillieh" is now "e-twelve" ( me ) - I'm not schizophrenic ( although it is the 21'st century .. with a nod to King Crimson "Nothing he wants, he really needs" ) ---
Uh Oh - Upgradeitis , dss and RX
I just received an upgrade from Reaktor Dynamo to Reaktor Session, because it now supports Mac OSX Audio Units. Couldn't resist the upgrade, because now I'll have all those new sounds to experiment with!
The free Reason upgrade to 2.5 is still waiting to be explored!
I spend more time upgrading my system's software than playing music. YIKES!
Chill out kids - learn to use what you have - get some discipline when it comes to managing the little time that we've got - all of your suggestions have a lot more grains of truth than what the music software/hardware industry is selling us.
Believe me, I love this stuff, and I know that most everyone of you does, too.
It just can get in the way of what we are really trying to do ... be inspired musicians.
Rx - You asked me what virtual instruments I use ... answer: anything I can get my hands on. I use Reason, Live, and Logic Audio. I'm trying to figure out the proper mix of all of them as the tools for creating music - I'm not there yet - hence the "mental block".
Being a guitarist, and having a Midi Guitar interface ( the old Roland GI-10 ), I take my guitar and run it through the GI-10, split it out through a Roland VG-8 guitar processor, take the Midi signals into the sequencer to drive various virtual instruments, split the audio outputs into outboard effects units, send them through the Delta 1010 back into the sequencer, and then also process some of the audio signals in Live along with background drum and bass loops .... ( but why??? - - just because it can be done ).
So I can hit a single note, and hear it processed multiple ways, and if I press the record button, I can fill up a hard disk in the most efficient manner possible.
It's like trying to capture all the frequencies of light in a ray of Sun, and splitting them out for further/future processing. An interesting experiment, but, it doesn't really work.
So ... I'm "One Sick Puppy" - a mad scientist in search of tone. I have a great time hooking this stuff up to see what happens, but no one hears it but me -
Without electricity, no one can hear how you can scream ... maybe I'll pull out my acoustic guitar, take a walk in the woods, and sing to the wind ...
End of random thoughts # 119 - e-twelve
Mental Block ?
Out of curiosity, do you just record whatever you're feeling at the moment, or do you try to lay down stuff while playing other tracks? Are you making loops or recording stuff to edit and create loops? Is latency and issue at all? It sounds like fun, playing with the outboard fx and all, but as you say, it doesn't really work. Just a suggestion - maybe you should create midi loops using your geetar sometime instead of recording audio. Loop some beats, create a midi loop, then mess with the outboard fx all you want, as a different way of doing things.e-twelve wrote:Being a guitarist, and having a Midi Guitar interface ( the old Roland GI-10 ), I take my guitar and run it through the GI-10, split it out through a Roland VG-8 guitar processor, take the Midi signals into the sequencer to drive various virtual instruments, split the audio outputs into outboard effects units, send them through the Delta 1010 back into the sequencer, and then also process some of the audio signals in Live along with background drum and bass loops .... ( but why??? - - just because it can be done ).
So I can hit a single note, and hear it processed multiple ways, and if I press the record button, I can fill up a hard disk in the most efficient manner possible.
It's like trying to capture all the frequencies of light in a ray of Sun, and splitting them out for further/future processing. An interesting experiment, but, it doesn't really work.
Arp Laszlo
arphaus.com
Dell 6000d: 2.0ghz Pentium 760 | 1gb DDR2 ram
Echo Indigo DJ | Korg microKONTROL | faded black t-shirt emblazoned with 'Detroit' in gothic type
arphaus.com
Dell 6000d: 2.0ghz Pentium 760 | 1gb DDR2 ram
Echo Indigo DJ | Korg microKONTROL | faded black t-shirt emblazoned with 'Detroit' in gothic type
Rx - Got sidetracked last night by family stuff ... my life gets split up into little fifteen minute segments ... not real conducive to ever getting anything done.
That's the problem with "home studios" ... you're always accessible, and the thought is that you're really never working, but just playing around. Maybe when I get my second daughter out of the house and in college, I'll be totally financially destitute, but I may have a little time to myself ... You do what you have to do, and family certainly should have priority - that being said ...
The theory on the extreme hookup and routing that I mentioned previously is this:
Since I suck playing drums, keyboards, and bass ( I do have a bass guitar, but I play it like a lead guitarist ... which is what I was when playing in live bands eons ago ... ), let's set things up so that I can record and capture an extreme amount of data from a single performance from beginning to end, and then take pieces of that performance and break it out and mix it to become a total composition.
So the guitar's Midi signal, and connection through the Roland VS-8, gives me six channels of Midi information, plus the processing of audio through the VS-8's output, plus the original guitar signal, and any other stuff I want to physically patch in line to capture various tonality from the same performance.
So now I want to pick up that Midi information and feed soft-synths, Reason stuff, drum patches, etc. And take that audio information and mix, feed it through Live's processing and capture, and so on.
And so, somehow, I have enough raw data to draw from, and create a total syncronized performance mix ...
Yep - that's the theory - but there are latencies ( OSX does a pretty good job keeping them low, but they're still there ) - the real latency is in the pitch to midi conversion in the Roland GI-10. If it were linear, I could just time-shift the midi tracks to align with the audio, but nothing is never that easy.
So I end up with a lot of performance data, and am overwhelmed by what it would take to get it all put together, mixed, and turned into a finished song.
So the real issue is getting back to playing loops ( wherever they originated from ) versus playing "live" and performing to perfection ( whatever that means ).
It's a whole different philosophy toward creating music, and that's what I'm having a hard time getting my arms around.
Like dss pointed out ... it feels like cheating, but it's really about using the tools that get things done, and learning to let go and learn new methods.
At the risk of being gross - the old dogs that can't learn new tricks end up being roadkill ....
The day you quit learning new stuff, you might as well give up .. but not me!
That's the problem with "home studios" ... you're always accessible, and the thought is that you're really never working, but just playing around. Maybe when I get my second daughter out of the house and in college, I'll be totally financially destitute, but I may have a little time to myself ... You do what you have to do, and family certainly should have priority - that being said ...
The theory on the extreme hookup and routing that I mentioned previously is this:
Since I suck playing drums, keyboards, and bass ( I do have a bass guitar, but I play it like a lead guitarist ... which is what I was when playing in live bands eons ago ... ), let's set things up so that I can record and capture an extreme amount of data from a single performance from beginning to end, and then take pieces of that performance and break it out and mix it to become a total composition.
So the guitar's Midi signal, and connection through the Roland VS-8, gives me six channels of Midi information, plus the processing of audio through the VS-8's output, plus the original guitar signal, and any other stuff I want to physically patch in line to capture various tonality from the same performance.
So now I want to pick up that Midi information and feed soft-synths, Reason stuff, drum patches, etc. And take that audio information and mix, feed it through Live's processing and capture, and so on.
And so, somehow, I have enough raw data to draw from, and create a total syncronized performance mix ...
Yep - that's the theory - but there are latencies ( OSX does a pretty good job keeping them low, but they're still there ) - the real latency is in the pitch to midi conversion in the Roland GI-10. If it were linear, I could just time-shift the midi tracks to align with the audio, but nothing is never that easy.
So I end up with a lot of performance data, and am overwhelmed by what it would take to get it all put together, mixed, and turned into a finished song.
So the real issue is getting back to playing loops ( wherever they originated from ) versus playing "live" and performing to perfection ( whatever that means ).
It's a whole different philosophy toward creating music, and that's what I'm having a hard time getting my arms around.
Like dss pointed out ... it feels like cheating, but it's really about using the tools that get things done, and learning to let go and learn new methods.
At the risk of being gross - the old dogs that can't learn new tricks end up being roadkill ....
The day you quit learning new stuff, you might as well give up .. but not me!
When I get in a rut, I remix. Whether it's one of my old songs or someone else's, I love tweaking "finished" music. To me, it is never done. It helps me get refocused on my songs. Many times, when I get setup to track a new composition, we just play stuff without recording. Other times I slave away fine-tuning a snare sound on a 1-bar loop for hours. Either way little of the effort seems to get preserved. Destructively altering a composition is very liberating. It's the modern equivalent of folk music or playing covers. Or is folk music and covers the modern equivalent of folk music and covers?
I think you need a little tension between artist and medium to get really creative. That tension can come from self-imposed rules for craftsmanship or style. It could come from complete unfamiliarity with the equipment or material. The tension could be the disregard for conventionality or it could be the denial of self expression that comes with rigorous adherence to standardized norms. It could be trying to perform while your sick (or in and altered state of consciousness). Whatever. Tension is the user interface for risk and risk (as we all know) is essential to growth.
Once in awhile, I think I can't keep up with this hobby I pretend is my alternate career. As my expectations descend, I start to realize I'm making the best material of my life. I can't take comfort in just listening to music the way so many people do. I have to interact with it.
I think you need a little tension between artist and medium to get really creative. That tension can come from self-imposed rules for craftsmanship or style. It could come from complete unfamiliarity with the equipment or material. The tension could be the disregard for conventionality or it could be the denial of self expression that comes with rigorous adherence to standardized norms. It could be trying to perform while your sick (or in and altered state of consciousness). Whatever. Tension is the user interface for risk and risk (as we all know) is essential to growth.
Once in awhile, I think I can't keep up with this hobby I pretend is my alternate career. As my expectations descend, I start to realize I'm making the best material of my life. I can't take comfort in just listening to music the way so many people do. I have to interact with it.
Tension between the artist and medium ... well said.
Tension and release are terms used in the description of music composition ( in my experience, referring to Classical Music ). What we are going through in our creative processes today, I have to believe are universals that transcend the eras that we all are living through. Human expression, using the tools that are available to us ... but, in the overall scheme of things, more of the same - creativity is the reworking ( or remixing ) of what has gone before us.
We express ourselves with the words that are in our vocabulary due to the thoughts and expression of those with or before us. Music is much the same. Although we strive to create "something new", we continuously restate our experience, adding what we can ... to move things along and hopefully fuel others with our interpretations.
Whoa - I didn't know I had such philosophical meanderings lurking in the back of my mind so late at night! That is what I appreciate about this forum; the collective feedback from a community that goes beyond the trivial rants, etc. of a lot of other boards. I truly appreciate everyone's input, and the provocative "food for thought".
Expectations ... how can we set our goals? - The key seems to be aspiring to the goals we set for ourselves, not the expectations of others. Freedom is truly frightening once we realize who we are truly responsible to ... only ourselves.
Thank you for your insight -
Tension and release are terms used in the description of music composition ( in my experience, referring to Classical Music ). What we are going through in our creative processes today, I have to believe are universals that transcend the eras that we all are living through. Human expression, using the tools that are available to us ... but, in the overall scheme of things, more of the same - creativity is the reworking ( or remixing ) of what has gone before us.
We express ourselves with the words that are in our vocabulary due to the thoughts and expression of those with or before us. Music is much the same. Although we strive to create "something new", we continuously restate our experience, adding what we can ... to move things along and hopefully fuel others with our interpretations.
Whoa - I didn't know I had such philosophical meanderings lurking in the back of my mind so late at night! That is what I appreciate about this forum; the collective feedback from a community that goes beyond the trivial rants, etc. of a lot of other boards. I truly appreciate everyone's input, and the provocative "food for thought".
Expectations ... how can we set our goals? - The key seems to be aspiring to the goals we set for ourselves, not the expectations of others. Freedom is truly frightening once we realize who we are truly responsible to ... only ourselves.
Thank you for your insight -
[ Trying to go back a bit to the original first post ;-D ]
Products like Reason are "just" extensions of hardware equivalents, but with its own merits and a far more attractive pricetag ... I think that people who come from the hardware realm and getting into the [physically and economically] more conveniant sw studio maybe tend to want to play with all the bells and wistles of all they can find ... they're all so accessible ... People who start out with the sw studio quickly get overwhelmed by all that potential sonic wealth and get lost into experimentation ....
Ten years ago when you bought your first eg . juno-106 this was quite an investment and you wanted to get to the bottom of your investment ... so you got to know your gear inside out ... nowadays there are some many options of softsynths, efx ... that it's virtually impossible to approach each one with that "juno-106" attitude ... result is that studiowork is fragmented into tinkering with a zillion plugins ... and also your creative work is fragmented into tiny snippets .... Also on the efx I decided to honour the attitude : use in sw what you could buy in hardware .. automatically your choices dwindle to realistic proportions ... [15 years ago none could fill up a couple of 20 units 19' racks like you can do know with plugins .... so why should you do it now ]
I used to do quite some tinkering in that way but was getting less and less productive ... even if I'm basically a sample cut/copy/paste artist ... and could have made all these snippets as loops to use ...
Live for me was an eye-opener regarding the computer as an instrument , because that's what it is : an INSTRUMENT not merely a tool ... 'cause much more than the Logic's, Cubase, DP of our world, this was a fresh new approach to [ Live computer aided ] music making ... I was baffled
So one day - shortly after the 1.0 release - I made a drastic decision : I wiped a whole part of my audio folders, deleted a zillion vsti's & efx and decided to go music barebones again choosing for Live as my instrument plain and simple and deciding to take Live where it was never taken before, turning it inside out , making in my own like my clarinet used to be, or what your guitar might be to you ...
So today I'm left with a [relative
] small audioclip folder , a VERY restricted vstefx folder [+/- 12 + the Live efx] and Live .... it's often restrictive in comparison with what I used to have access to ... but I've learned that limitations are the best breedingground for creativity ... think back in the days where you used to manually cut up clips to create delays and reverbs before I had any plugins ...
But more and more I dare to say I'm getting to know Live inside out and maxing it out with its current features ... I'm using it to make new clips, to mutate old clips, sequence one shots to new clips , ... etc ... Now I still have to start maxing out the potential of the efx I'm using...
Still a lot of work to do even with such a minimal setup ...
It's drastic but I never regretted .... the most important change of mindset is you have to see Live indeed as an instrument not a tool ...
Products like Reason are "just" extensions of hardware equivalents, but with its own merits and a far more attractive pricetag ... I think that people who come from the hardware realm and getting into the [physically and economically] more conveniant sw studio maybe tend to want to play with all the bells and wistles of all they can find ... they're all so accessible ... People who start out with the sw studio quickly get overwhelmed by all that potential sonic wealth and get lost into experimentation ....
Ten years ago when you bought your first eg . juno-106 this was quite an investment and you wanted to get to the bottom of your investment ... so you got to know your gear inside out ... nowadays there are some many options of softsynths, efx ... that it's virtually impossible to approach each one with that "juno-106" attitude ... result is that studiowork is fragmented into tinkering with a zillion plugins ... and also your creative work is fragmented into tiny snippets .... Also on the efx I decided to honour the attitude : use in sw what you could buy in hardware .. automatically your choices dwindle to realistic proportions ... [15 years ago none could fill up a couple of 20 units 19' racks like you can do know with plugins .... so why should you do it now ]
I used to do quite some tinkering in that way but was getting less and less productive ... even if I'm basically a sample cut/copy/paste artist ... and could have made all these snippets as loops to use ...
Live for me was an eye-opener regarding the computer as an instrument , because that's what it is : an INSTRUMENT not merely a tool ... 'cause much more than the Logic's, Cubase, DP of our world, this was a fresh new approach to [ Live computer aided ] music making ... I was baffled
So one day - shortly after the 1.0 release - I made a drastic decision : I wiped a whole part of my audio folders, deleted a zillion vsti's & efx and decided to go music barebones again choosing for Live as my instrument plain and simple and deciding to take Live where it was never taken before, turning it inside out , making in my own like my clarinet used to be, or what your guitar might be to you ...
So today I'm left with a [relative
] small audioclip folder , a VERY restricted vstefx folder [+/- 12 + the Live efx] and Live .... it's often restrictive in comparison with what I used to have access to ... but I've learned that limitations are the best breedingground for creativity ... think back in the days where you used to manually cut up clips to create delays and reverbs before I had any plugins ... But more and more I dare to say I'm getting to know Live inside out and maxing it out with its current features ... I'm using it to make new clips, to mutate old clips, sequence one shots to new clips , ... etc ... Now I still have to start maxing out the potential of the efx I'm using...
Still a lot of work to do even with such a minimal setup ...
It's drastic but I never regretted .... the most important change of mindset is you have to see Live indeed as an instrument not a tool ...
http://www.mbazzy.tk -
Mbazzy's "The dysfunctional playground, a scrapbook a bout the shape of useless things" now OUT on Retinascan - http://www.retinascan.de
Mbazzy's "The dysfunctional playground, a scrapbook a bout the shape of useless things" now OUT on Retinascan - http://www.retinascan.de
Re: Mental Block ?
[quote="phillieh"]I find that I spend more time turning Live into a "$3000 effects box" than actually making music. Great stuff, fun, rewarding, etc. , but sometimes it's a lot more rewarding to just play without any of the electronic wizardry that we've all been sold.[quote]
I can imagine this. It's a trap we all fell into sometimes... what you might try is to start using acoustic instruments only. Just record everything live. You will love the ease to manipulate certain recorded parts in Live. Keep things simple and try to use simple sounds, a guitar a voice and some percussion (you can use small percussion, like shakers and foottapping etc).
I think in general acoustic instruments have way more depth than any synth or sampler, so by playing real instrument your music might sound more.... human
I can imagine this. It's a trap we all fell into sometimes... what you might try is to start using acoustic instruments only. Just record everything live. You will love the ease to manipulate certain recorded parts in Live. Keep things simple and try to use simple sounds, a guitar a voice and some percussion (you can use small percussion, like shakers and foottapping etc).
I think in general acoustic instruments have way more depth than any synth or sampler, so by playing real instrument your music might sound more.... human
This has become a really interesting thread... what exactly good are all these toys? Just to weigh in in an abstract way, I abandoned OS9 (along with R3 and Logic 4) when I installed Jaguar this past winter. Mac users among is will understand why this would be a big deal. I swore off Logic, Reaktor, Recycle (well, at least until 10.2.4) and a bunch of other software so I could use the OS that made me feel like I had a whole new computer.
Okay, so I had Live, Reason and Peak. Over the course of the last year, I've recorded a full-length, that I've just put the finishing touches on. I feel like I know those three packages like the back of my hand. I keep putting off the purchase of Logic... Not that I don't want it, but it doesn't seem anymore that it's something I just _HAVE_ to get.
Now don't get me wrong... I've determined that I can't stand Reason's sequencer - I just can't relate to music in the way that it wants to work. Give me Logic any day. I'm also the happiest squirrel ever playing with Reaktor 4.
I guess the biggest part of it is - I don't want my music to stay stagnant in the place where it is, created by the same tools I've been using and under the same constraints ... But those constraints have actually been artistically beneficial to me. It has made me realize the truth to the cliches - music is not gear ('wares) in itself... Use what you have to the fullest to express yourself. Anything else is distraction.
Okay, so I had Live, Reason and Peak. Over the course of the last year, I've recorded a full-length, that I've just put the finishing touches on. I feel like I know those three packages like the back of my hand. I keep putting off the purchase of Logic... Not that I don't want it, but it doesn't seem anymore that it's something I just _HAVE_ to get.
Now don't get me wrong... I've determined that I can't stand Reason's sequencer - I just can't relate to music in the way that it wants to work. Give me Logic any day. I'm also the happiest squirrel ever playing with Reaktor 4.
I guess the biggest part of it is - I don't want my music to stay stagnant in the place where it is, created by the same tools I've been using and under the same constraints ... But those constraints have actually been artistically beneficial to me. It has made me realize the truth to the cliches - music is not gear ('wares) in itself... Use what you have to the fullest to express yourself. Anything else is distraction.
e-twelve: I know about the time issue - I've got a 6-month-old boy and he needs lots of attention. Not that it's a bad thing - he's adorable and tons of fun, and is probably the best thing to happen to me musically since I finally have something to do that makes me forget about music entirely, so I'm pretty fresh when I use my limited time to work on choons. Your setup is pretty interesting, but it really seems like a lot all at once. That being said, I like coming up with things bit by bit and I don't give a hoot about performing, so take that with a grain of salt. I'd still try to simplify and limit the size of your usable 'toybox'...
Arp Laszlo
arphaus.com
Dell 6000d: 2.0ghz Pentium 760 | 1gb DDR2 ram
Echo Indigo DJ | Korg microKONTROL | faded black t-shirt emblazoned with 'Detroit' in gothic type
arphaus.com
Dell 6000d: 2.0ghz Pentium 760 | 1gb DDR2 ram
Echo Indigo DJ | Korg microKONTROL | faded black t-shirt emblazoned with 'Detroit' in gothic type
Question: did you track any vocals for your record? How many vocal tracks? How many total tracks?logickal wrote:Okay, so I had Live, Reason and Peak. Over the course of the last year, I've recorded a full-length, that I've just put the finishing touches on. I feel like I know those three packages like the back of my hand. I keep putting off the purchase of Logic... Not that I don't want it, but it doesn't seem anymore that it's something I just _HAVE_ to get.
Thanks!
peace,
rahlo
------------------------------------------------------
http://www.rahlo.com
MacBook Pro, Live 8, Reason 4, Akai MPD 32, Akai MPK 49, Akai APC 40, Metric Halo ULN-2 expanded, Apogee Duet.
rahlo
------------------------------------------------------
http://www.rahlo.com
MacBook Pro, Live 8, Reason 4, Akai MPD 32, Akai MPK 49, Akai APC 40, Metric Halo ULN-2 expanded, Apogee Duet.
-
dirtystudios
- Posts: 1196
- Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2002 1:28 am
i've gotten into the habit of consulting 'oblique strategies' when i'm stuck on something. it's a deck of cards written by brian eno and pals to help them get past their blocks by suggesting new ways of approching a project. anything from "feed the recording back out the medium" to "look closely at the most embarassing details and amplify them" to "turn it upside down". it works for pretty much any artistic medium. they have actual decks as well as programs you can download that serve the same purpose. it doesn't always work, but it's given me a fresh perspective on a project several times. the official website is here:
http://www.rtqe.net/ObliqueStrategies
k
http://www.rtqe.net/ObliqueStrategies
k
Dirtystudios: Thanks for mentioning that! I've read Eno's bio and have wanted a deck but thought I'd have to spend an arm and a leg on Ebay to get one.
Arp Laszlo
arphaus.com
Dell 6000d: 2.0ghz Pentium 760 | 1gb DDR2 ram
Echo Indigo DJ | Korg microKONTROL | faded black t-shirt emblazoned with 'Detroit' in gothic type
arphaus.com
Dell 6000d: 2.0ghz Pentium 760 | 1gb DDR2 ram
Echo Indigo DJ | Korg microKONTROL | faded black t-shirt emblazoned with 'Detroit' in gothic type
There are a couple of vocal tracks (actually, three I believe). All were heavily processed and mangled before and after recording. I think average track count for the project was 12-15 tracks, although that's an estimation.rahlo wrote:
Question: did you track any vocals for your record? How many vocal tracks? How many total tracks?
Thanks!
Oh, and Eno's Oblique Strategies are the way to go.
Cheers!
Jeremylogickal
Logickal - You are aggravating me just even mentioning Reaktor 4 - I've been fighting Session - see the Session versus OSX thread on this board -
Reason is a great program, but it seems to kick out the same kind of jams repeatedly, and that's why I started this thread - dance music, and related beats, are great stuff, but, unfortunately not what I play - I realize that all these electronic computer things are only tools - but the tools constrain what we are able to do.
I took the time last night to change the strings on my electric-twelve string guitar.
I plugged in, tuned up, and played in headphones - no recording, no sequencers, no monitors or noise from the fans ... you know what? ... Freedom ...
But the ghosts of all the stuff that "could be" called to me in the back of my head.
"What If' I could lay this track down, and "What If" I had this other stuff going too?
That's the creative thoughts that float through all of our heads ... hearing what we are doing, and knowing that we can do so much more ... sometimes, simple is better, but ...
I "NEED!" all this stuff ( well - maybe I don't ) -
On another note - Eno's Oblique Strategies -
I remember Fripp and Eno;s "Index of Metals" - building up a sonic periodic table using long loops - using loops way before it was commonplace - you might be able to listen to it once, if you're into trance music ...
Reason is a great program, but it seems to kick out the same kind of jams repeatedly, and that's why I started this thread - dance music, and related beats, are great stuff, but, unfortunately not what I play - I realize that all these electronic computer things are only tools - but the tools constrain what we are able to do.
I took the time last night to change the strings on my electric-twelve string guitar.
I plugged in, tuned up, and played in headphones - no recording, no sequencers, no monitors or noise from the fans ... you know what? ... Freedom ...
But the ghosts of all the stuff that "could be" called to me in the back of my head.
"What If' I could lay this track down, and "What If" I had this other stuff going too?
That's the creative thoughts that float through all of our heads ... hearing what we are doing, and knowing that we can do so much more ... sometimes, simple is better, but ...
I "NEED!" all this stuff ( well - maybe I don't ) -
On another note - Eno's Oblique Strategies -
I remember Fripp and Eno;s "Index of Metals" - building up a sonic periodic table using long loops - using loops way before it was commonplace - you might be able to listen to it once, if you're into trance music ...