Live and Max stuck when saving a device

Questions and discussion about building and using Max for Live devices
madlab
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Re: Live and Max stuck when saving a device

Post by madlab » Tue Oct 25, 2016 5:04 pm

It used to be stable and reliable for me at some point, apart for those occasional and rare crashes, often on the edit phase, once a device was solid and clearly designed, I felt confident to use it in Live in demanding real time situations. But now i can't save any device. I'm stuck.
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madlab
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Re: Live and Max stuck when saving a device

Post by madlab » Tue Oct 25, 2016 5:11 pm

It seems we're not alone to have some strange problems. I'd rather see those solved instead of opening the software to new areas of potential link problems. https://cycling74.com/forums/topic/max- ... A-RU4XTrN8
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Angstrom
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Re: Live and Max stuck when saving a device

Post by Angstrom » Tue Oct 25, 2016 5:56 pm

stringtapper wrote:
Angstrom wrote:Opinion: This software pairing does not feel robust and tightly integrated. quite the opposite.
Probably the one thing you and I completely agree on when it comes to M4L. The whole pairing of two separate apps with a bit of code that lets them talk to each other has always seemed a bit clunky to me. Of course integrating a special version of Max within Live's codebase might be monumental task and could even require a ground-up rewrite of Live.

But that's exactly what I expected when M4L was first announced and I still think it could be an amazing step if they decided to re-engineer the entire M4L environment so that it is native to Live and not dependent on installing the standalone Max app.
To be clear on my opinions:
I think Max is a remarkable software environment in its breadth of scope, but that same scope opens the door to a myriad of integration issues, platform dependency issues, and 3rd party errors. The Ableton Live application's brand values have always been stability and an intuitive UI for music creation. Live 8 was notable for Gerhard's public Mea Culpa to the users (the codebase stability audit & hiatus) So the inclusion of an open door to 3rd party issues was an unusual decision.

API endpoints are fine, Ableton can police those easily but M4L is presented as an integrated product with Ableton Live. That raises expectations of the M4L devices - If the Live core application updates then we expect native devices to update and remain functional. Even 3rd party VSTs will likely have bugfixes included, but for M4L devices ... they appear native but are a gateway to future problems. here's a typical Non-functional Example . Alternatively : how up to date is your Convolution Reverb Device ?

I've always suspected the power of Max as a visual prototyping tool seduced the Ableton devs into opening Pandoras box. Extending the existing codebase seemed like a lot of work, while leveraging Max seemed easier and was more seductive to developers who create code. Max is great for prototyping software, but did Live users want to prototype software in their DAW? Or is that what software developers want. Are Live users naturally good coders? It makes the boom years of amateur VST creation seem well founded by comparison.

Again, I respect the power of Max as an application, and the integration has been a heroic task. But it was an odd choice in context.

Lastly to note: I'm fully capable of using it, but it feels a LOT like my day job - because I will write shitty badly conceived code in it, and it will all crash.

Angstrom
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Re: Live and Max stuck when saving a device

Post by Angstrom » Tue Oct 25, 2016 10:53 pm

Well, it's unauthorised itself again.

it lasted a whole 5 hours this time. A new record !

Tarekith
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Re: Live and Max stuck when saving a device

Post by Tarekith » Wed Oct 26, 2016 6:44 am

Steve,

When's the last time you did a completely fresh install of Live and Max?

madlab
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Re: Live and Max stuck when saving a device

Post by madlab » Wed Oct 26, 2016 9:29 am

Tarekith, does that mean thrashing the apps and reinstalling or do you recommand doing more ?
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broc
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Re: Live and Max stuck when saving a device

Post by broc » Wed Oct 26, 2016 9:54 am

From cycling support I got the advice to thrash the app and delete the cycling'74 folder from the (hidden) user Library (on Mac) before re-installing Max. That worked for me at least to get rid of the authorisation problem.

Tarekith
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Re: Live and Max stuck when saving a device

Post by Tarekith » Wed Oct 26, 2016 10:10 am

madlab wrote:Tarekith, does that mean thrashing the apps and reinstalling or do you recommand doing more ?
I was referring to trashing the apps and all the preferences, etc. Just curious, as it's seemed to solve a lot of issues for some people, though I know it's a bit of a last straw to try for some people.

Angstrom
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Re: Live and Max stuck when saving a device

Post by Angstrom » Wed Oct 26, 2016 11:17 am

Tarekith wrote:Steve,

When's the last time you did a completely fresh install of Live and Max?
Hi,
Last time I did a full install of Live was June when I had to fix this very same issue,
viewtopic.php?f=35&t=222133
In that case I uninstalled both Live and Max, and used Revo uninstaller to scrub all remnants of Max from my system then reinstalled fresh versions of Live and Max in new folders. It took quite a few hours but this resolved the problem for 2 months.

The most recent time I did a full install of Max was 3 days ago.
I installed Max on a whole different Drive this time, (C drive) hoping to get rid of some other issues (60 second startup on Live, and a further 60 seconds to open the max editor - support said move it to C)

So, on Sunday I reinstalled max, and have had it de-authorise itself 3 times since then.

I've sent a bug report/ crashdump thing in to Support, naturally. ( #2017071 )

Tarekith
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Re: Live and Max stuck when saving a device

Post by Tarekith » Wed Oct 26, 2016 12:52 pm

Cool man, just curious. Sorry you're still having so many issues. So weird as this just doesn't come up often at all :(

Angstrom
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Re: Live and Max stuck when saving a device

Post by Angstrom » Wed Oct 26, 2016 4:42 pm

Tarekith wrote:Cool man, just curious. Sorry you're still having so many issues. So weird as this just doesn't come up often at all :(
it's odd. I have noticed that it will certainly lose the authorisation if live doesnt close correctly.
For example Windows restarted itself after an update and that auto-restart closed Live in a brutal manner. On restarting Max needed to be reminded of its authorisation status.
The other thing I've noticed is when I close Live normally Max generates two weird floating dialogs with error messages in them. A kind of "cant find the resource" error. On close. So those are something to do with it.

ah well.

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Re: Live and Max stuck when saving a device

Post by Tarekith » Wed Oct 26, 2016 6:28 pm

And you've talked to the Max guys about stuff like those windows popping up?

Angstrom
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Re: Live and Max stuck when saving a device

Post by Angstrom » Wed Oct 26, 2016 7:54 pm

Tarekith wrote:And you've talked to the Max guys about stuff like those windows popping up?
I havent reported those. They only started occuring recently. Perhaps the last two weeks or so.
Because I only see them when I close Live at the end of the day and they dont directly impact my workflow I havent yet bothered. By 2am I'm all done with chasing bugs.

I guess "the max guys" are reached via the usual Live application support link & website form?

broc
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Re: Live and Max stuck when saving a device

Post by broc » Wed Oct 26, 2016 11:01 pm

Select 'Support' on the cycling website https://cycling74.com/

I always got quick and helpful answers.

Angstrom
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Re: Live and Max stuck when saving a device

Post by Angstrom » Wed Oct 26, 2016 11:15 pm

broc wrote:Select 'Support' on the cycling website https://cycling74.com/

I always got quick and helpful answers.
Aha, I figured without a standalone Max license that wouldnt do much for me. The only time I go there is when M4L tells me its time to get a new installer.
The integration of who takes care of what in this relationship is confusingly distributed for me.

I'll send them a screenshot of the mystery boxes. They only appear once a day, because if I shut Live I am wary about what will happen when I open it again. So, I just leave it running if I can get everything working.
It's not very stable. I would never gig with it, that's for sure!

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