How much have you used relative modulation since Live 9?

[Angstrom]

In Live there two kinds of parameter envelope: Absolute automation values and relative modulation values. Now I suspect modulation representation has been buried too deep for anyone to use it.

In Live 8 it worked this way:
In arrangement the Absolute Envelope showed the absolute parameter value (EG: Cutoff=64 meant a half open filter).
In clips existed relative modulation, an envelope value which was relative to the absolute envelope value (EG if Relative cutoff =10 then resultant cutoff= 74 )

Previously the only envelopes viewable in session clips were of the Relative "modulation" type so graphical representation to users was easy. If you saw an envelope in session (or anywhere in a clip) it was always a relative "modulation" envelope. Automation envelopes only existed in arrangement.

In L9
To incorporate automation recording into Session clips the devs had to find a way to represent both the Relative and Absolute values. A complex problem. Unfortunately the UI method chosen was not the best, but the most expedient for automation. Modulation was swept under the rug so that the new headline feature was more accesible. Hidden. It is possible to edit it, but I suspect many don't access this unique Ableton feature any more, because it is so hidden.

I think this is a shame as relative modulation envelopes are one of Live's unique features. The hiding has been detrimental in many areas EG: consider the mapping of a M4L LFO to a parameter, which should be a relative mapping but it is expressed detrimentally as an absolute, locking the parameter to the LFO in a one to one absolute value relationship. That's bad.

So, I was curious if you guys still use relative mod envelopes, or if you had forgotten they even existed.

[chapelier fou]

I use it A LOT.
I know it'x buried in sub menus, but once you've got the habit...

[arafel]

Thanks
OP - Angstrom.
Your posts are ones I pay attention to.. even if its way over my head, still information has been gain many times.

I've always avoided interaction between 'Clip' and 'Arrangement' Automation, perhaps because of this 'relative' nature. I can understand the benefit, in creating complex modulations and interactions being organic.

I might be foolish..but in L9.5, I cannot seem to create this interaction at all (I'm trying on a fresh project).
Automation in 'Clip' (under Envelopes) is the same as 'Arrangement'...

I'll keep trying

[Michael Hatsis]

Honestly, I rarely ever use them anymore ( clip modulations ), aside from the obvious- volume, clip transpose, and pitch bend. still can't get over they took out panning modulation . That one really makes things alot quicker when tryin to pan stuff- especially in the arranger.
Also, from time to time I mess w clip modulations w unlinked envs
Never use mfl, as there is no guarantee my set will load with all mfl stuff intact- and I hate losing work. So lfo thing ur talkin about doesnt directly affect me.
All in all, Im mostly pretty cool w the way they implemented session automation,. Would love to get panning mod back tho!

On another note, I teach ableton as one of my main sources of income, and how it works in L9 makes it alot more difficult to teach as its kinda confusing at first to lots of students- when should I teach modulation? in the beginning with automation or later on? Should I even show it to them? Yeah, I have to cause of volume and transpose- Why does it work different than automation? ...
Like I said tho, all in all works fine for me

[Angstrom]

I think a lot of people were confused about absolute and relative values, and when people are confused they get irascible. I suspect many people in the first week of using Ableton Live 8 were baffled that they had "moved a parameter envelope up to the top" and the parameter itself remained at zero. Absolute and relative were confusing.

So, In some ways the hiding of relative modulation envelopes probably helped the learnability of the application in Live 9. But I'm really not a fan of hiding as a UI simplification strategy. I hope L10 exposes clip based modulation in an elegant way. I think relative modulations have merits.

A long time ago, during the L9 beta I suggested the below representation of absolute (red) and relative (green) envelopes as an indication of how the two might be combined and represented visually. I'm not saying this is the way, only that its an indication of a way.