The forking of the arrangement roads - how do you do it?

[Angstrom]

How do you cope with that moment when the song can go one of two ways? When you have an idea for a different arrangement and you need to try it out and see if it works better than what you have - so you save as "My Song - Alternative arrangement" and work that up. Do all the edits, tighten the timings etc. Add the new parts. Seems OK.
Then you want to compare it to the previous version. So you load the old version up, but that has all the out of time parts and misses the edits, so you try to merge the clips, but only Session clips can be imported. Other DAWs have some great tools for this, but the transferral process of making all the stems for all the clips is painful.

So, how do you try out an alternative arrangement?
Is it the same method as me - take all the stems to a an arrangement DAW, or do you have some genius method I haven't thought of ?

[Stromkraft]

How do you cope with that moment when the song can go one of two ways? When you have an idea for a different arrangement and you need to try it out and see if it works better than what you have - so you save as "My Song - Alternative arrangement" and work that up. Do all the edits, tighten the timings etc. Add the new parts. Seems OK.
Then you want to compare it to the previous version. So you load the old version up, but that has all the out of time parts and misses the edits, so you try to merge the clips, but only Session clips can be imported. Other DAWs have some great tools for this, but the transferral process of making all the stems for all the clips is painful.

So, how do you try out an alternative arrangement?
Is it the same method as me - take all the stems to a an arrangement DAW, or do you have some genius method I haven't thought of ?

I wouldn't call it genius, but I name locators after the first Arrangement ends and call it something like "Alt Mix 2 Start" and take it from there. After the second mix is ready I can quickly move between the named locators with my original Push (I use PXT Live). Locators after this are named starting with "m2".

[Angstrom]

Yeah, I've worked that way too. I guess I still do.
In fact the current song I have open has my usual abomination at the end where I am constructing various bridge attempts, key changes, etc.

But the problem with that strategy is - the main song's automation is prone to getting fucked up if I alter something in the mix or EQ in these later "scratch" sections, it will affect everything before and after it due to the way Ableton handles automation. Moving a parameter is dangerously destructive. Even if I make sure to create a new breakpoint to try and isolate edits from what came before. But even then ... it will make a ramp up or down from the previous written automation for that parameter. So if I set the EQ at bar 1.1.1 and the song ends at bar 90.1.1 and I make an EQ edit in my scratch-zone at bar 150.1.1 ... I just made an accidental parameter ramp from bar 1.1.1 to bar 150.1.1 which will go all through my actual mix. These fuckups are usually hidden in a folded automation lane and discovered on a render. Using this method (as I have for years) inevitably triggers a bunch of breakages and repair tasks.

I hope Ableton take a good look at how Studio One's scratch and arranger tracks work and realise that they have fallen behind massively in an area which was once completely theirs.

Ableton's scenes should be able to handle this sort of task - but they now seem under-powered and outdated.

[Stefan Jantschek]

Very good question.
Arising of the thoughts i was talking about in the "future of live..." thread.
"Think about how much unfinished work is on your drives, etc"
Thanks for thinking it beyond "it´s not because of software limitations"

How do i do it?
Basicaly i try to twiddle out the strongest elements, meditate how much that decisions are depending on my momentary mood, try to eliminate that for a "timeless checksum" and open a new arrangement to combine.

And here we get the trouble.
If this elements are cearly accessible, everything works quickly.
As soon as to many elements are depending on some relations with others,
we need to fumble.
And we´re always walking on the edge of flexibility or security.
Render everything to Audio makes it quite secure, but you sacrifice flexibility, and reverse.
Always keeping both, saving every preset, etc. drives you also in wierd directions.
I must admit that this is my biggest stuck: When to switch from MIDI to WAV?
But that needs another thread: How much MIDI/Audio do you play in Live life?

So one important question is today:
How do we lead the undoubted exploding amount of "creations" into something substantial?
Tagging, Access, Links etc. can only be the basic idea of that requirement.
That goes even far beyond Audio Software...

[Stromkraft]

So if I set the EQ at bar 1.1.1 and the song ends at bar 90.1.1 and I make an EQ edit in my scratch-zone at bar 150.1.1 ... I just made an accidental parameter ramp from bar 1.1.1 to bar 150.1.1 which will go all through my actual mix.

I just make a copy of any effects I want to change and deactivate/activate. Note that I was talking about trying out different arrangements, not doing multiple mixdowns in one set. I seldom print track levels as fader rides are done with FreeG or Utility, so it'd be risky to change those.

[Tarekith]

If I'm trying out different arrangements, I just try and do my best not get carried away with mixdown tweaks or adding new parts and just focus strictly on the arranging. On the off chance I like the original arrangement best but maybe tweaked an alternate version or added a few new parts I still want, I'm fine freezing them and just using the new audio in back in the original arrangement. If it was good enough to make me want to transfer it, likely I'm not going to tweak it much anyway.

But I'm a big proponent of print it and move on too, which I know doesn't suit everyones way of working.

[Stefan Jantschek]

But I'm a big proponent of print it and move on too, which I know doesn't suit everyones way of working.

That is a good step forward if you found a way how that works for you.

There was a time i used to sum everything i "perform" down to 8-Track and record that in real time.
Within Live.
That worked surprisingly good, system specs considered.
It just gave me another memory-intensive amount of fractals to decide if i keep them or not...

[Angstrom]

I've found that printing to audio gives me great results in the final mix / remix stage.
But in the stages prior to (composition/arrangement) I'm still tweaking sounds and that requires all the variables to be available. I'd love to do all my composition of sections in Session but its too limited, it cant do "a verse" full of edits.

Setting the tone of each compositional chunk requires balancing of the sounds, it's not really "mixing" its more a balancing the arrangement segment's tonalities. A more softly played guitar which drives the amp less and needs panning and more reverb ... Etc. I'm trying out voicings, timbres and tones, moods.

[NoSonic822]

i spend as little time as possible in arrangement mode, i do all the main arranging in session mode. when you arrange and compose in session mode, it makes changing and re arranging things incredibly easy. the tough part is learning how to arrange in session mode

[Stromkraft]

i spend as little time as possible in arrangement mode, i do all the main arranging in session mode. when you arrange and compose in session mode, it makes changing and re arranging things incredibly easy. the tough part is learning how to arrange in session mode

Well, using <Session for arranging means making scenes with loops with a negative start as what I want is something specific to happen at a certain point, or potentially even better use the follow function to play ends. And I need to build sections for variations to handle multiple.

But transitions, I don¨t see how that could be made in Session. You know all the stuff that starts before the end of the current section and ends after the start after the next. Maybe a special transitional scene for that? That's a lot of scenes then.

No, I think I prefer Arrangement. But always good to know both playback modes better.

[NoSonic822]

the arrangement view is for that last 10% of the process. just to add the special stuff, and also so you can see everything laid out in front of you.

you are starting to use the arrangement view at probably the 50% mark of the process, this is not efficacious.

[Stefan Jantschek]

the arrangement view is for that last 10% of the process. just to add the special stuff, and also so you can see everything laid out in front of you.

you are starting to use the arrangement view at probably the 50% mark of the process, this is not efficacious.

The arrangement page has this gorgeous path "consolidate time to new scene".
And here we are again, the highly seducing loop to infinity.

[Stromkraft]

you are starting to use the arrangement view at probably the 50% mark of the process

You, meaning anyone, can start using Arrangement at any chosen point, also from the start. Actually, quite a few people do.

[Angstrom]

the arrangement view is for that last 10% of the process. just to add the special stuff, and also so you can see everything laid out in front of you.
you are starting to use the arrangement view at probably the 50% mark of the process, this is not efficacious.

Nope.
Perhaps YOU can use it in YOUR workflow like that. But that doesn't make it objectively true.
There are things I can only do in Arrangement because of the Session functionality limitations.

For Example:
Editing together sub-bar chunks of audioclips - each with crossfades, and each little clip has a different stretch mode. Each clip is starting off the bar.
I do this every day.
In this shot, the "desc" clip starts in beats mode and crossfades into complex mode. The vocals start before the bar.So does the bass clip.

[Stromkraft]

the arrangement view is for that last 10% of the process. just to add the special stuff, and also so you can see everything laid out in front of you.
you are starting to use the arrangement view at probably the 50% mark of the process, this is not efficacious.

Nope.
Perhaps YOU can use it in YOUR workflow like that. But that doesn't make it objectively true.
There are things I can only do in Arrangement because of the Session functionality limitations.

For Example:
Editing together sub-bar chunks of audioclips - each with crossfades, and each little clip has a different stretch mode. Each clip is starting off the bar.
I do this every day.
In this shot, the "desc" clip starts in beats mode and crossfades into complex mode. The vocals start before the bar.So does the bass clip.

One can also add that it's perfectly viable — for those that know their clips (and Live) — to run Arrangement and Session in tandem.