Truths about perceived quality in audio interfaces for ITB
Re: Truths about perceived quality in audio interfaces for ITB
Thanks everyone. Some good points were raised and I hear all of them.
The bottom line seems to be ( = what I was trying to figure out mostly) that producers on a budget who stay ITB and have no other specific needs can confidently spend money on (or stick with) a brand that is not RME, Universal Audio or Apogee (not to bash, just to name a few), and can still be confident that they will perceive and process their music in more or less the same way as with higher end interfaces.
I feel a lot of money is thrown at these interfaces just because the reviews put them high up, without people actually knowing what they are paying for (or maybe it's just me ).
The bottom line seems to be ( = what I was trying to figure out mostly) that producers on a budget who stay ITB and have no other specific needs can confidently spend money on (or stick with) a brand that is not RME, Universal Audio or Apogee (not to bash, just to name a few), and can still be confident that they will perceive and process their music in more or less the same way as with higher end interfaces.
I feel a lot of money is thrown at these interfaces just because the reviews put them high up, without people actually knowing what they are paying for (or maybe it's just me ).
Re: Truths about perceived quality in audio interfaces for ITB
https://youtu.be/cIQ9IXSUzuM
a fairly easy to understand 'scientific' approach trying to explain sound quality of the OUTPUTS. As stated earlier, inputs are a completely different story.
a fairly easy to understand 'scientific' approach trying to explain sound quality of the OUTPUTS. As stated earlier, inputs are a completely different story.
andy
2015 MBP, OSX 10.12, Live 10.1 64bit, RME Fireface 800
2015 MBP, OSX 10.12, Live 10.1 64bit, RME Fireface 800
-
- Posts: 852
- Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2015 8:45 pm
- Location: Oklahoma City
- Contact:
Re: Truths about perceived quality in audio interfaces for ITB
This is a great thread! And that's a super great point about the pre's. When I bought my 18i20, the guy mentioned how the scarlett can color the inputs - especially if using a mic. At the time, I didn't care, but now I seem to have "collected" a few mics! I have recorded my mics through the Apogee, and the results were phenomenal. Now I want to compare to the scarlett. This totally makes sense.Machinesworking wrote:Mostly with audio interfaces the output to speakers is all the same, like Tarekith mentioned some have lower noise floors, but mostly all are solid. It's inputs for recording etc. that separate them. Digital to analog converters seem to be relatively cheap to do decently, but analog to digital converters take some expensive parts. If you're talking preamps and desirable coloring of sound, then you can spend as much on that as the sound card and computer itself. Most built in pre amps on sound cards (microphone inputs built in) are pretty bad. The more expensive brands have decent pres, and that's a good portion of the price.Shift Gorden wrote: I have a Scarlett 2i4, Scarlett 18i20 and an Apogee Duet. I've noticed no difference between the Apogee and Scarlett's in terms of audio quality. I didn't plug in the Apogee and say "holy crap, that sounds amazing."
Basically the Scarlett should sound as good during playback, but it's entirely possible the Duet has better Pres.
Re: Truths about perceived quality in audio interfaces for ITB
For years I haven't bought sound cards for the sound quality. I've bought sound cards for their drivers and build quality. An inexpensive sound card might sound great but when will the cheap capacitors start leaking and fail? When will great sounding inexpensive sound card no longer support the latest operating system update? So yeah the OP is correct, it has little to do with sound quality.
Re: Truths about perceived quality in audio interfaces for ITB
This is very true. Let's not forget the microphone quality either. Though, a great audio interface can't do so much for improving a so and so mic. But if you need to get a good mic, which I guess comes after the interface then you might not be able get the audio interface you want at the same time. I've been there myself.fishmonkey wrote:i think it's also worth noting that the quality of your monitoring system—headphones and/or speakers+room have a large impact on what you hear.
this is especially true of speakers in rooms. many people spend big on interfaces and speakers, and ignore or skimp on room setup, acoustic measurement, and treatment. these have a massive impact on sound quality which dwarfs any difference between budget and high-end audio interfaces.
if you've never experienced the difference between an untreated and treated room, here is an example:
http://gikacoustics.com/wp-content/uplo ... d_room.mp3
Basic gear info: Macbook Pro with macOS 10.12, Ableton Live Suite version 9 (64bit) with Ozone, Push and APC20 as controllers.
Re: Truths about perceived quality in audio interfaces for ITB
If you are never recording external audio, the sound inside Live (or amy DAW) is totally unaffected by what interface you use to monitor.
Period.
Full stop.
Interfaces matter if you are picky about the quality of the monitored sound and of course if you are recording external audio.
Period.
Full stop.
Interfaces matter if you are picky about the quality of the monitored sound and of course if you are recording external audio.
-
- Posts: 7033
- Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:34 am
Re: Truths about perceived quality in audio interfaces for ITB
This is actually belief on your part, as far as I can tell from the info in your post. Easily tested as well by recording with reference gear.doghouse wrote:If you are never recording external audio, the sound inside Live (or amy DAW) is totally unaffected by what interface you use to monitor.
I'll give you most audio interfaces are very, very close in playback quality and that most users are likely to not be able to tell different ones apart in double blind tests. I'd wager there are minute differences with advanced signals. That's part of my personal experience.
Make some music!
-
- Posts: 11421
- Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2004 9:30 pm
- Location: Seattle
Re: Truths about perceived quality in audio interfaces for ITB
I think you missed his point, the sound card does zero to a Simpler MIDI track flattened to audio in Live.Stromkraft wrote:This is actually belief on your part, as far as I can tell from the info in your post. Easily tested as well by recording with reference gear.doghouse wrote:If you are never recording external audio, the sound inside Live (or amy DAW) is totally unaffected by what interface you use to monitor.
I'll give you most audio interfaces are very, very close in playback quality and that most users are likely to not be able to tell different ones apart in double blind tests. I'd wager there are minute differences with advanced signals. That's part of my personal experience.
it might be coloring the sound in and out of the box, but it's not affecting soft instrument quality in the least.
It can affect your mix, and your ear fatigue, but I think for the most part DA converters are easy, it's the monitors and room that really matter there.
The separation in quality with good sound cards comes in the analog to digital converters, actual parts, and the support for OS's down the line. RME and Metric Halo lead the pack this way, MOTU also have drivers for everything they've put out going back 16 plus years. Apogee abandoned some earlier PCIe cards, i.e. they aren't getting new drivers written for them, so they can screw right off. Same with NI, I've had a few abandoned audio cards from them in Rig Kontrol and Kore... M-Audio also abandon older gear, luckily the only M-Audio thing I own is the ProKeys 88 MIDI keyboard and it's class compliant.
-
- Posts: 7033
- Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:34 am
Re: Truths about perceived quality in audio interfaces for ITB
I did not miss the point.Machinesworking wrote: I think you missed his point, the sound card does zero to a Simpler MIDI track flattened to audio in Live.
it might be coloring the sound in and out of the box
Your last sentence covers my observation. This is hardly 100% uninteresting, even though monitors, room and daily form are bigger contributors.
I've been trough quite a few audio interfaces at this point. There are differences, though they are minute enough to warrant getting ignored by most people. Which doesn't mean there are no differences. Also very small differences are differences, negligible or not.
We seem to agree on everything else.
Make some music!
-
- Posts: 11421
- Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2004 9:30 pm
- Location: Seattle
Re: Truths about perceived quality in audio interfaces for ITB
You're still missing it. He meant the recording of audio in Live when a soft synth is flattened is not affected by the sound card. The sound card does no audio processing to the process.Stromkraft wrote:I did not miss the point.Machinesworking wrote: I think you missed his point, the sound card does zero to a Simpler MIDI track flattened to audio in Live.
it might be coloring the sound in and out of the box
Your last sentence covers my observation. This is hardly 100% uninteresting, even though monitors, room and daily form are bigger contributors.
I've been trough quite a few audio interfaces at this point. There are differences, though they are minute enough to warrant getting ignored by most people. Which doesn't mean there are no differences. Also very small differences are differences, negligible or not.
We seem to agree on everything else.
Now the sound of the room, your monitors and to a lessor degree the differences in audio quality of a sound card all affect the way the audio played back in that room sounds, for sure. I think if you're doing only soft synths, and not ever using the inputs on your soundcard, you can get by just fine with a midrange card. If you're using the inputs of your sound card to capture guitar, vocals, synths etc. then really the high end is going to sound much much better.
My point remains though, the DA converters on most sound cards are to specs that are universal, so your monitors and room treatment are going to have a vastly larger impact on the ability of you to get a good mix.
-
- Posts: 7033
- Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:34 am
Re: Truths about perceived quality in audio interfaces for ITB
No, I do think I'm not. This is what doghouse wrote and I quoted:Machinesworking wrote: You're still missing it.
doghouse wrote:"…the sound inside Live (or amy DAW) is totally unaffected by what interface you use to monitor"
Your interpretation that this concerns flattening or similar aspects is quite unreasonable given the fact doghouse isn't quoting such a concept, no previous comment as far as I can see mentions this and in addition there is no "sound inside Live", there is only sound going out to the monitors, before the analog domain there is only numbers, albeit marked with other numbers as audio. Likewise "ITB" does not commonly mean "audio inside the computer you don't hear".
Yes, but no-one claimed this, did they?Machinesworking wrote:it might be coloring the sound in and out of the box, but it's not affecting soft instrument quality in the least.
Of course, I'm not claiming I know for sure what doghouse meant, but I'm not necessarily misunderstanding as the info for making this interpretation of yours is actually missing (the above points). But OK, "sound inside" could refer to the audio concept existing within Live, but, again, as no-one was discussing this why would doghoue mention it? Is this what I'm missing? If so, I apologize, but that's not contained within doghouse's post I think.
2pauluzz2 initially posed this question, which is the ramification of this discussion even though anyone can choose to take this into another direction as usual:
(My bold)2pauluzz2 wrote:is there an actual difference in "sound quality" in different audio interfaces, when you work ITB exclusively and only need to monitor speakers and headphone?
While I accept your interpretation, and whatever doghouse meant is of course what he meant, I really think my interpretation of doghouse's quote is more reasonable than that this part of the discussion self-evidently concerns flattening in relationship to audio interfaces.
I agree with everything else you wrote. We can disagree on what we believe about this and only doghouse knows for sure.
Make some music!
-
- Posts: 4478
- Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 4:50 am
Re: Truths about perceived quality in audio interfaces for ITB
this kind of interminable semantic nitpicking is really tedious. i for one have not missed it one bit.
Re: Truths about perceived quality in audio interfaces for ITB
I work with a team of software engineers so I've gotten used to it to some extend, but I hear youfishmonkey wrote:this kind of interminable semantic nitpicking is really tedious. i for one have not missed it one bit.
Jokes aside, these guys/gals are making valid points because making sure that we're talking about the same thing is crucial to the issue at hand.
I bet that a ridiculous sum of money gets spent on audio interfaces by people who read online that "X interface by brand Y is the best", not realising they are blowing their savings on 4 high-end pre-amps they'll never use, and branding. Understanding what it is that one is paying for can be quite vital for those ITB producers on a budget who don't need to get stuck in a gear loop, but just need to know that what they are buying is not going to "devaluate" their music.
Re: Truths about perceived quality in audio interfaces for ITB
The OP did not mention a need to record external audio!!!!!!!Stromkraft wrote:This is actually belief on your part, as far as I can tell from the info in your post. Easily tested as well by recording with reference gear.doghouse wrote:If you are never recording external audio, the sound inside Live (or amy DAW) is totally unaffected by what interface you use to monitor.
But most of the replies wrote about recording quality! That is why I made my reply.
I don't care what you believe, but if I monitor Live using a pair of earbuds plugged into the headphone jack on the computer or use the best interface and speaker system possible, it does not affect the sound inside the computer. The sound you hear will be very different, of course.
The interface does become critical as soon as you want to record external audio.
Sorry for derailing this thread.
-
- Posts: 439
- Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 12:48 am
Re: Truths about perceived quality in audio interfaces for ITB
These sorts of questions remind me of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrK5u5W8afc
Man, that mic sounds like a dream! Where can I buy one?
In other words, it's more about the talent than the equipment. But I guess if you are an audiophile type who is willing to pay 100% more to get 5% improvement, then it's a different matter.
Man, that mic sounds like a dream! Where can I buy one?
In other words, it's more about the talent than the equipment. But I guess if you are an audiophile type who is willing to pay 100% more to get 5% improvement, then it's a different matter.