Automate plugin parameters in arrangement view

[DanMan]

Title

Dan

[Stromkraft]

Title :)

Dan

That's too vague though. Please spell it out. It's not as if automation recording to Arrangement isn't possible. You mean something specific, so please describe it so others can understand it fully.

[DanMan]

Title

Dan

That's too vague though. Please spell it out. It's not as if automation recording to Arrangement isn't possible. You mean something specific, so please describe it so others can understand it fully.

Well maybe I'm mistaken .... but even recording a modwheel (arguably one of the simpler automations) ends up in the clip and not in the arrengement view. So basically ... want to be able to edit and modify all automation in the arrangement view. Its quite annoying to have to do it at the clip level.

I was working on a guitar lead part last night with pitch bends and mod wheel (vibrato) and it was extremely slow to enter the clip .... turn on the envelope, select the one I wanted, and make changes. Then if I wanted to edit the midi, turn of the envelope ... edit midi data, then etc etc etc etc etc. Very cumbersome workflow.

Now maybe I'm missing something but ... I looked and looked and everything I found says (for now at least) clip is all we get. (not talking mixer automations etc.)

[Stromkraft]

Now maybe I'm missing something but ... I looked and looked and everything I found says (for now at least) clip is all we get. (not talking mixer automations etc.)

We get everything into Arrangement too. It's just that for some unknown reason, you have to work to actually see it in Arrangement and it's possible with some parameters you can't, unless you assign a macro or something to it. Which is so stupid.

I have no idea why anyone, certaoinly the product owner in the Live development team, would find this to be acceptable. Beats me…

I think that may be what you're really after.

[DanMan]

Now maybe I'm missing something but ... I looked and looked and everything I found says (for now at least) clip is all we get. (not talking mixer automations etc.)

We get everything into Arrangement too. It's just that for some unknown reason, you have to work to actually see it in Arrangement and it's possible with some parameters you can't, unless you assign a macro or something to it. Which is so stupid.

I have no idea why anyone, certaoinly the product owner in the Live development team, would find this to be acceptable. Beats me…

I think that may be what you're really after.

Well it sure doesn't seem llike it works .... Midi CC 1 is already assigned to modwheel, (Vibrato) in the plugin (Kontakt 5, Shreddage). I can record but there is no automation lane selectable in the arrangement view, but the data is in the clip. So if "we do get it in arrangement view" I must be missing something as only selectable automation lane for Kontkt 5 is "Device On".

I did initially think this would be a no brainer ... but it doesnt seem so at all.

[Nokatus]

Well it sure doesn't seem llike it works .... Midi CC 1 is already assigned to modwheel, (Vibrato) in the plugin (Kontakt 5, Shreddage). I can record but there is no automation lane selectable in the arrangement view, but the data is in the clip. So if "we do get it in arrangement view" I must be missing something as only selectable automation lane for Kontkt 5 is "Device On".

I did initially think this would be a no brainer ... but it doesnt seem so at all.

Check the manual for how the Live automation system works as a whole. But the general jist of it: when you wish to automate using the arrangement automation lanes, for most plugins (with many automatable parameters) you need to first configure which parameters you wish to automate, otherwise you only see the "device on" of the plugin instance/container.



Use the "Configure" button and move the parameter controls in the plugin. Another way to do this is just recording some automation by engaging automation arm from the transport, and moving those parameters in the plugin GUI while recording; they will be added to the configured parameter list.

After you have the parameters available in the configured list, you can hook a MIDI control to them by clicking on the "MIDI" button in the upper right corner of the Live GUI. This is for realtime control of those parameters via MIDI; automation on the arrangement lanes doesn't require you to hook separate MIDI controls like this, just having the parameters configured is enough.

All in all, specifically for Kontakt, it also depends a lot on the actual Kontakt instrument whether it's advisable to "override" for example MIDI CC 1 in that manner (hooking CC 1 to an automatable parameter like above). Some instruments might have a lot of inner workings tied up with one CC like the modwheel, and by associating it with a single control in the instrument GUI, you might not get the same end result than when the instrument itself is receiving the MIDI CC and acting as scripted. Usually it's easy to tell which stuff might be a good idea to control in which manner, though.

The idea in having the CCs in the MIDI editor for things like Kontakt instruments is, when composing, the CC data is usually intimately connected with the actual note events that are happening in the piece. I wouldn't mind being able to choose whether MIDI CC comes from the arrangement or the MIDI editor/clip, of course. But technically speaking, that is MIDI data, recorded alongside the note events, not parameter automation.

[DanMan]

Thx Nok ... Ill look into this today. Sure seems conveluted O.o. Whats also wierd is that I read (I think) all the automation sections of the manual and didnn't walk away understanding that this was required or even possible. Searchees on the internet also yielded nothing like your explanation above, so it seems that I may be in the majority with respect to people not understanding this.

It would really be nice if we could just pick a parameter in an arrangement view automation lane and automate it (with edits) . Yeas with multiple loop clips all always doing the same thing this may not be as good, but I doubt thats the majority of what is needed. Maybe having both options would be best.

I'll report back with how I get on.

Thanks,

Dan

EDIT: After trying and understanding what Nok decribed below ... its not convoluted ... kind of nice actually, but somewhat hidden (I guess) even after doing some research and reading to figure out how to do it. I was working on a track so maybe my patience level during the research part was limited. However, my serches involved searing for things like Automate pligin parameters in Live 10 .... everything I found was about clip automation.

[Nokatus]

It would really be nice if we could just pick a parameter in an arrangement view automation lane and automate it (with edits) .

This is exactly what you can do , and it really works quite effortlessly once you get the hang of it. The only thing you need to do first is, choose the parameters you wish to be visible, by clicking on that "configure" button and choosing the controls in the plugin.

After you have chosen them this way, they are available to be picked for automation, on the automation lanes.

[DanMan]

It would really be nice if we could just pick a parameter in an arrangement view automation lane and automate it (with edits) .

This is exactly what you can do , and it really works quite effortlessly once you get the hang of it. The only thing you need to do first is, choose the parameters you wish to be visible, by clicking on that "configure" button and choosing the controls in the plugin.

After you have chosen them this way, they are available to be picked for automation, on the automation lanes.

Hey Nok ... indeed. I tested a few plugins. Output Rev, Guitar Rig 5, Revalver HPS (to see if maybe its a shreddage thing) and it worked just like you said in fact Revalver had all the parameters already "auto configured". Looks like shreddage is not sending out the neccesary info to live from kontakt as it does not work with shreddage 2 with any of the 10-15 knobs I tried. I'll let them know.

Your help is greatly appreciated

Dan

[Nokatus]

No prob

[WILES]

Hi guys,

so I'm now having the same issue but I have another layer of difficulty. I'm wanting to automate a midi CC for a midi track which is controlling an external instrument - I can easily edit this in each clip but I want an automation lane that spans multiple clips in the arrangement view. Because I'm not controlling a plugin there is no 'configure' box for me to click!

any help much appreciated

J

[PusheeLive]

I use CC Manager to do what you want, it was free a week or so ago.

https://isotonikstudios.ccoom/product/n ... struments/

[wdim]

Well, if you're looking for automation of mod wheel in the arrangement view using the red automation line, because you'd like to automate it throughout your entire song (across many MIDI clips in the same track) and see it all the time as any other automation, that's a tricky one in Ableton.

Important thing to understand is, that mod wheel is MIDI CC message (CC #1). So it's recorded and also it's editable in the MIDI clip itself only (the same way as MIDI notes are - doubleclick on clip to see it in detail at the bottom part of the screen and there you can see/edit "envelopes". Mod wheel is one of that envelopes). So it's not automation, it's MIDI data.

BUT ...

How to see it in arrangement as red automation line in the track?

a) you'll get used to the said fact, that you have to record/edit mod wheel envelope inside every MIDI clip alone.
There's an option to "unlink" the envelope from the clip length so you'll be able to define it across more clips, but you still have to doubleclick the correct clip to edit it (not practical)

b) you'll make use of Ableton's routing and you'll create a separate MIDI track to define only mod wheel envelope across entire song and you'll also create track for MIDI notes (shorter clips / many separate clips as you're normally used to do an arrangement) and then you'll route these two MIDI tracks into third MIDI track where your VST/instrument actually is (this will effectively merge the MIDI messages together). Then you always know where the mod wheel envelope is and it will be "song wide". But you still have to doubleclick it to see it

c) if you have Max for Live, then great! This it totally doable. There's Max device called "CC map8":
https://maxforlive.com/library/device/2560/cc-map8
We can use this device to generate MIDI CC #1 (mod wheel) messages upon knob change. And we can automate this knob.
Just put this device before your VST/instrument, assign to one of the knobs the "CC #1" and move/automate the knob.