How to render groups properly?

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McAnix
Posts: 415
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:42 pm

How to render groups properly?

Post by McAnix » Sun Jul 22, 2018 6:31 pm

So I have a project with groups: drums, bass, synth, lead. Each of those groups has a number of tracks. Now for the purpose of a live performance I want to render each group as one audio file but, when I solo the group then export it, then bring it back into the project the rendered file is louder than the original group. It's not much louder but it is audible and according to the meters by about 2 db. If I turn normalize off then it's too soft.

All limiters are turned off.

Am I missing something obvious? What's the best way to do this?

pottering
Posts: 621
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2014 4:41 am

Re: How to render groups properly?

Post by pottering » Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:16 pm

McAnix wrote:So I have a project with groups: drums, bass, synth, lead. Each of those groups has a number of tracks. Now for the purpose of a live performance I want to render each group as one audio file but, when I solo the group then export it, then bring it back into the project the rendered file is louder than the original group. It's not much louder but it is audible and according to the meters by about 2 db. If I turn normalize off then it's too soft.

All limiters are turned off.

Am I missing something obvious? What's the best way to do this?

You complain Normalize On makes the exported track louder, and then you complain Normalize Off doesn't make the track as loud as with Normalize On.

Normalize Off is your Group's audio, just like you made it. But seems clear you prefer Normalize On.

What's even the problem with the extra 2 dB? Maybe you can just use it like that.

Live doesn't clip internally (because it runs 32-bit internally), 32-bit WAV doesn't clip either.

If that extra 2 dB are above 0 dBFS, what you may be hearing as "good" is probably your DAC converter clipping (your soundcard or audio interface), converters don't output above 0 dBFS, they will clip even though 32-bit audio can go way above 0 dBFS.

You can try rising the gain 2 dB before a Clipper in the Group, and then exporting with Normalize Off. Maybe it will sound like you want to, "hard" yet not +2 dB.

McAnix
Posts: 415
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:42 pm

Re: How to render groups properly?

Post by McAnix » Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:49 pm

pottering wrote:[

You complain Normalize On makes the exported track louder, and then you complain Normalize Off doesn't make the track as loud as with Normalize On.
No, that's not what I meant. Normailze on and the track is louder than the original, Normalize off and the track is softer than the original. That's what I'm trying to figure out.

I just want the bounce the same as the original group.

pottering
Posts: 621
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2014 4:41 am

Re: How to render groups properly?

Post by pottering » Sun Jul 22, 2018 11:57 pm

Maybe you forgot you had a Send when listening to the group in Live?

Sends (Return Tracks) don't get muted when you solo a track or group.

But they are separate and don't get mixed back into the original track. So they don't get exported when you export the group.

mikb
Posts: 373
Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2011 9:53 pm

Re: How to render groups properly?

Post by mikb » Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:43 am

McAnix wrote:SIt's not much louder but it is audible and according to the meters by about 2 db. If I turn normalize off then it's too soft.
I think maybe you will have to accept you can't measure levels with your eyes.

Likely the group output normalize off export is exactly at the same level as in the original. If your group fader is at 0dB and you export with normalize off, then the levels should be exactly the same or you are leaving something out which affects levels.

On the other hand if your group fader is less than 0dB you can only have the same level if your exported and re-imported audio is put on a fader at 0dB. So what are the fader positions in your case?
Basic gear info: Macbook Pro with macOS 10.12, Ableton Live Suite version 9 (64bit) with Ozone, Push and APC20 as controllers.

McAnix
Posts: 415
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:42 pm

Re: How to render groups properly?

Post by McAnix » Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:54 am

Firstly, my OP is a bit all over the place, apologies.

Basically Normalize OFF is not working as expected, Normalize on works as is should. I don't have any sends, I don't even have effects, these are premixed stems (not my tracks), it's just a blank project with audio tracks and groups. All faders are set to zero. The reason it's driving me crazy is because the level difference is clearly audible, I don't even need to look at the meters.

fishmonkey
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Re: How to render groups properly?

Post by fishmonkey » Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:18 pm

i suggest that you post a screenshot of an example set, and the export window...
badbrainz wrote: I'm a drummer, so I'm already at an intellectual disadvantage here

mikb
Posts: 373
Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2011 9:53 pm

Re: How to render groups properly?

Post by mikb » Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:08 pm

McAnix wrote:Firstly, my OP is a bit all over the place, apologies.

Basically Normalize OFF is not working as expected, Normalize on works as is should. I don't have any sends, I don't even have effects, these are premixed stems (not my tracks), it's just a blank project with audio tracks and groups. All faders are set to zero. The reason it's driving me crazy is because the level difference is clearly audible, I don't even need to look at the meters.
Well, something is clearly wrong.
Basic gear info: Macbook Pro with macOS 10.12, Ableton Live Suite version 9 (64bit) with Ozone, Push and APC20 as controllers.

McAnix
Posts: 415
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:42 pm

Re: How to render groups properly?

Post by McAnix » Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:22 pm

Yeah I tried it again and it's still doing it, one things that might be causing it, each song is in a group so it could be a thing with groups in groups, but like I said I haven't touched a fader. That's why I was so baffled in the beginning, this is not normal.

I'll have to do more testing.

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