Song sounds perfect in ableton but exported it sounds bad ):

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
d.reamonn
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Re: Song sounds perfect in ableton but exported it sounds bad ):

Post by d.reamonn » Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:34 am

Apple is a company.
https://soundcloud.com/maybe-logic

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dpknight
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Re: Song sounds perfect in ableton but exported it sounds bad ):

Post by dpknight » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:55 pm

I found clipping was more pronounced in export than when listening ableton. Mp3 was worse than flac, but both were a lot worse than listening in Ableton.

I had all my signals too hot, over-reliant on limiter, and was very disappointed at export sound compared with how it sounded in Ableton.

Wound everything back 5db, and the export sound a lot more like it does in Ableton - identical really.

I think it was a hangover from analogue era... I thought you had to get as close to that 0 line as possible, but its really important to the sound to have a bit of headroom and not over reliant on compression to artificially avoid the red zone.

jlgrimes
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Re: Song sounds perfect in ableton but exported it sounds bad ):

Post by jlgrimes » Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:21 am

Rhett383 wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:02 am
Hey guys,

Right now I'm creating a song using ASIO4ALL and it sounds great in ableton, but as soon as I render it to disk it doesn't sound correct at all. I mean it's still the same song, but it sounds so much more "airy" and low quality and just all in all crappy. Why does it sound amazing in ableton but horrible in .wav or .mp3 :(

help?

P.S. I know mastering, but this happens even after I master.

picture of my export settings:
Image
Some type of bug maybe.

Where is your audio peaking at?

You can also try resampling the output which should record output in real time. From there you can find audio clip which should sound like how you heard.

What are you using to play export?

Try exporting at 32 bit fp.

What plugins are you using?

I'd be extra cautious of anything 3rd party especially freeware or an obscure m4l device. Or any plugin that's very old and/or not up to date.

Is your sound card drivers up to date? (This might be harder to tell)

Is your ASIO4ALL driver up to date?

Try disabling all plugins for a test. Mix will probably sound horrible but that's not the point. Does your export sound the same as how you heard it on playback? If so it might be a bad plugin or device.

You could try freezing all tracks then exporting.

Are you using the Ableton beta version btw?

What are your Windows audio settings?

jlgrimes
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Re: ASIO Driver and mastering/render help :(

Post by jlgrimes » Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:41 am

102455 wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:01 pm
Dump ASIO4ALL.

It's NOT an ASIO driver!
ASIO4ALL is usually pretty stable.

Some cheap interfaces actually use it for their drivers.

But it could be a sound card that's not playing nicely with it.

jestermgee
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Re: Song sounds perfect in ableton but exported it sounds bad ):

Post by jestermgee » Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:04 am

Check the thread date guys before getting wound up too much..... it’s a revival from 2013 from a google search probably.

orin
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Re: Song sounds perfect in ableton but exported it sounds bad ):

Post by orin » Tue Apr 23, 2019 6:16 am

Live 10.0.6 exports inconsistently today, so the thread is still relevant. Maybe google searches lead here for a reason: people are experiencing problems with export.

At least in my case, it is NOT the usual suspects: drivers, bit depth, sample rate, dithering, etc. It is also not faulty 3rd party software. Using *only* Ableton Live Suite instruments and plugins, I can render twice with identical settings and get different outputs.

Some simple instrument setups will render twice identically, but in general exports are inconsistent. This means Live doesn't have full control over audio rendering: it's nondeterministic, so who knows what might happen? I explained the cause of the problem a bit here[1] as well.

Am I the only one that expects rendering to be consistent? Images, video, just about every media software I've ever seen, has consistent render/export capability, but music is out of control. Not all DAWs, just some, including Live. Please fix! I will be happy to help if I can! Free consulting, even debugging if the setup is workable...

[1]: viewtopic.php?p=1757330&sid=10e1ba85709 ... e#p1757330

Fanu
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Re: Song sounds perfect in ableton but exported it sounds bad ):

Post by Fanu » Tue Apr 23, 2019 6:56 am

orin wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 6:16 am
Live 10.0.6 exports inconsistently today
Have worked with Live 10 and now Live 10.1 extensively, and I'll say it's 100% consistent: how it sounds to me while I work with it is how it'll sound to me after export. Where's my proof? I work as a mixing and mastering engineer, and I handle a few hundred songs a year. Export consistency pays my bills. I couldn't work with a DAW that'd sound different after export.

Prob 100% of the threads like this I've seen are because there's some Windows EQ going on when users listen to the file, they're running VLC player over 100% level or something. If you're on a Mac, use space bar to preview.
Image
Mastering & mixing by Fanu | Ableton Live Basics tutorial video
Mixing and mastering engineer | Ableton Certified Trainer

jestermgee
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Re: Song sounds perfect in ableton but exported it sounds bad ):

Post by jestermgee » Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:11 am

orin wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 6:16 am
Live 10.0.6 exports inconsistently today, so the thread is still relevant. Maybe google searches lead here for a reason: people are experiencing problems with export.

At least in my case, it is NOT the usual suspects: drivers, bit depth, sample rate, dithering, etc. It is also not faulty 3rd party software. Using *only* Ableton Live Suite instruments and plugins, I can render twice with identical settings and get different outputs.

Some simple instrument setups will render twice identically, but in general exports are inconsistent. This means Live doesn't have full control over audio rendering: it's nondeterministic, so who knows what might happen? I explained the cause of the problem a bit here[1] as well.

Am I the only one that expects rendering to be consistent? Images, video, just about every media software I've ever seen, has consistent render/export capability, but music is out of control. Not all DAWs, just some, including Live. Please fix! I will be happy to help if I can! Free consulting, even debugging if the setup is workable...

[1]: viewtopic.php?p=1757330&sid=10e1ba85709 ... e#p1757330
If it was inconsistent to such a degree as you suggest, would there not be more post about it and wouldn't Google select you to a thread less than 6 years old? Also, wouldn't more people have been complaining here in that time too? How are people producing and releasing and how are Ableton still in business after 15 years?

To make any claims that an export is inconsistent you need to backup the claims with your test sources and results, videos, audio exports etc. because for almost all of us, what we create is what is exported. There are cases when someone is unaware of how things in digital audio work, such as producing at 96khz (or higher if you are daft) then rendering an MP3 directly or a 44k/16 Wav without any attention to dither etc. Then as also suggested, if you don't have a proper pro audio interface you could have any other funkiness in the OS chain that could affect the sound.

Now I would probably take the advice of people like Fanu there because they have actual real training in the software and know how it works and if they say it's more likely you not the software i'd be looking within for the problem and not expecting a "fix" any time soon.

orin
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Re: Song sounds perfect in ableton but exported it sounds bad ):

Post by orin » Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:15 am

As a scientist, I will be first to admit doubt. Maybe I'm wrong and Live is perfect, but if you can replicate my results then we must admit the possibility that Live exports are inconsistent, at least with some instruments and effects. Here's the experiment, which I just did in Live Suite 10.0.6:

* File | New Live Set
* Load "Replican" (from the Punch & Tilt pack) into a new track
* Record a single note and put it onto the arrangement
* Export to WAV using the best settings you can imagine (I used 32 bit, 44100 hz, no dithering, keeping things simple).
* Repeat previous step, using another filename -- i.e. simply export *again*, exactly as before.
* Now compare the two .wav files and you will hear the difference. If you can't trust your ears, do what I did:
* Load both samples into a new Live set and disable Warp on both.
* Use one track to play the first sample
* Use a separate track with Audio Effects/Utility/Phase Invert to play the second sample
* If the two cancel out and you hear nothing when played together, the samples are identical
... but you don't hear nothing, you hear the sounds because they don't "null" (cancel) out perfectly -- because the two exports are different.

Conclusion: export is inconsistent.

There's the proof. Tell me I'm wrong and I will look into OS problems, drivers, or whatever clues you can give me, but I strongly suspect Ableton software at fault here. No offense, I still love Ableton and Live -- the workflow is fantastic, the design is brilliant! But consistent renders are not something I'm seeing yet, and I hope it will be fixed. So much so that I am prepared to work for free to help improve the system.

jestermgee
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Re: Song sounds perfect in ableton but exported it sounds bad ):

Post by jestermgee » Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:28 am

Since the issue doesn't affect me I won't spend my time to replicate the result. You could make a vid of your findings to make it easier for people to see what you are on about.

Maybe that preset has something like a free running LFO or phaser effect or something. Not knowing "how it sounds different" to the first I couldn't really tell you anything.

I'd suggest doing things a bit more "scientific" and use something like a clean sine wave, record your observations as a video or at least, offer your project via download so others can easily replicate the results instead of expecting others to dig through their packs and find the files you choose to use.

As already stated, most (if not all) people do not share your experience so either most (all) people are wrong or you have something else going on. As someone who has spent a LOT of time with live and also reading many similar posts like this over the decades, just as the posts here from years ago suggest, it is almost never the software it's either user error or inconsistent test results.

Create a test file using the stock Live preset, detail what you did as a test and offer a download link. If I have time I will confirm or not your problem.

pottering
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Re: Song sounds perfect in ableton but exported it sounds bad ):

Post by pottering » Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:54 am

"Replican" preset from Punch And Tilt uses Analog with unsynced 3.2 kHz vibrato and unsynced 0.2 Hz LFO2, and also Flanger with unsynced 0.01 Hz LFO.

Not sure if Analog has further analog emulation in the oscillators, filters and LFOs that would cause even more randomness, but it is common in analog emulation.

The wording in the manual about "Sub/Sync" implies the oscillators are free-running (like in analog synths), and I'm inclined to believe all LFOs are free-running too, at least I would expect LFOs without a "reset" button to default to free-run.

jestermgee
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Re: Song sounds perfect in ableton but exported it sounds bad ):

Post by jestermgee » Wed Apr 24, 2019 6:05 am

pottering wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:54 am
"Replican" preset from Punch And Tilt uses Analog with unsynced 3.2 kHz vibrato and unsynced 0.2 Hz LFO2, and also Flanger with unsynced 0.01 Hz LFO.

Not sure if Analog has further analog emulation in the oscillators, filters and LFOs that would cause even more randomness, but it is common in analog emulation.

The wording in the manual about "Sub/Sync" implies the oscillators are free-running (like in analog synths), and I'm inclined to believe all LFOs are free-running too, at least I would expect LFOs without a "reset" button to default to free-run.
:D

Basically as predicted and the reason I wasn't about to waste time loading live and looking for a preset. Heard this kind of claim enough times to know better.

Stennos
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Re: Song sounds perfect in ableton but exported it sounds bad ):

Post by Stennos » Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:31 pm

Hi, I am using Ableton 10 Lite, unmodified for single-track audio book production, just one audio track, one mic input, and one output. No sends, no effects apart from a couple of EQ adjustments and a slight bit of compression on the master track, and once I have the sound nice and resonant and perfectly balanced in Ableton, I then export it, without mono, without normalising, nothing added and regardless of the settings, PCM or MP3, 44100 or 96000, regardless of how few or many effects, the result when I play it back through itunes is bass heavy, boomy, muddy and I have to go back into Ableton and then adjust it until it sounds thin and tinny, and then keep going back and forth adjusting and exporting and adjusting and exporting, until I get to the point that when I export it finally I can get it to sound how I want it to in itunes, but at that point it sounds horrible in Ableton. I have to do this about thirty times trying to second guess it before I can get the output I want, and then it is like some kind of miracle. The exported track never bares any relationship to the ableton track. I understand about the down sampling, and so I tested it exporting at the same rates I recorded. I don’t have to worry about latency as I am only ever recording one track, so I can crank up the quality and never mind the CPU load, I don’t monitor myself by ear when I read, because I am reading to myself, I only use the db meter and a separate timer if required. So there should be nothing in the chain affecting the sound either at input, rendering, or output.

I am aware that there is a psychological effect to do with relativity, that means that whatever you listen to first, in terms of key, pitch, and depth of sound can significantly affect how you judge what you hear next, so something can sound great one day, rich and mellow, and the next sound completely boomy and flat, like when you listen to a new song for the first time and it sounds weird, but it only takes one or two more listens to become attuned to it, and for that reason I keep records of the various aspects of the recording, mic distance, and height, pre-amp gain etc. so I can replicate settings, when I need to, but as a result I am fairly sure that I am not convincing myself it is different - the sound is so drastically different.

I have neutralised all the settings in itunes and ableton, started with blank ableton templates, recorded a “raw” track and then exported “raw” - I even deleted all the devices so that every part of the Ableton interface was empty, no plug ins, nothing added and it makes no difference, whatever I do, unless I massively crank up the top frequencies and thin out the bottom ones so that it sounds like a tinny telephone in Ableton, it will export muddy and boomy as a wav or mp3.

I have been recording for years, my first major project was in 2011, when I produced an audio book on CD using Magix ACLAB which I bought for £14 five years previously and used on an old microsoft netbook, with a karaoke mic so I am used to getting things to do what I want and now I have an iMac and Ableton Lite 10, my understanding is I shouldn’t have to be spending hours trying to guess what settings I need in Ableton. I have some experience doing recording, and understand most of the concepts, but am baffled as to why there should be such a difference. Could it be that during the rendering, there is some kind of re-recording process that has an internally normalising process. Am I missing something? I understood that WAV and AIFF are basically the same, so should there be a difference if I choose AIFF, which I haven’t done this far, as I am sharing files with non-mac users.

I have researched this to bits, and cannot fathom why it should be so different, especially when I am testing it with unaffected tracks and have got no add ons. My iMac is original, the only bit of software on it that is not apple standard is the Ableton.

Any help would be appreciated. Thank you very much, sorry this sounds like rant, I love using Ableton, but this is driving me a bit loopy.

yur2die4
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Re: Song sounds perfect in ableton but exported it sounds bad ):

Post by yur2die4 » Thu Apr 25, 2019 3:33 am

You’re hopping between two softwares without having an additional reference in either.

It’d probably help get a better idea as to whether or not things actually are being affected by doing a few of the following.

1. When you render a file, try opening it back in Live. If it sounds drastically different inside the program that rendered it, then you have a problem. If it sounds the same, then the problem is between the different programs.

2. Also in Live, try opening a good quality example of a recording done by a professional, especially if you can find something along the lines of your direction for your recordings voice-wise. You might be trying to make it sound perfect in Live only, and in the narrow circumstances of your own setup, but clearly you’re expecting others to listen to it on things like iTunes etc, and you probably want it to sound generally palatable. Comparing it to a professional recording, you can see if certain frequencies sound overbearing.

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Re: Song sounds perfect in ableton but exported it sounds bad ):

Post by [jur] » Thu Apr 25, 2019 4:00 am

pottering wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:54 am
"Replican" preset from Punch And Tilt uses Analog with unsynced 3.2 kHz vibrato and unsynced 0.2 Hz LFO2, and also Flanger with unsynced 0.01 Hz LFO.

Not sure if Analog has further analog emulation in the oscillators, filters and LFOs that would cause even more randomness, but it is common in analog emulation.

The wording in the manual about "Sub/Sync" implies the oscillators are free-running (like in analog synths), and I'm inclined to believe all LFOs are free-running too, at least I would expect LFOs without a "reset" button to default to free-run.
...
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