Audio fuller/louder when routing out Battery and Omnisphere

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
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Artcutech
Posts: 130
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2016 11:56 pm

Audio fuller/louder when routing out Battery and Omnisphere

Post by Artcutech » Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:13 am

I've noticed this for sometime and don't always do it as to keep things in order with other plug-ins that I don't route out from within the plug-in itself.

so in Battery when clicking on a cell and routing out to st 3/4, st 5/6 etc, and letting the audio through to a audio track as opposed to playing on the midi track it's so much fuller/louder right away, it's not even close, it seems that it might be bypassing some internal setting but all of the faders are still active, so when moving the master vst fader it works and effects the overall sound as well as everything else within the plug-in, so what is making the audio so much louder as opposed to playback on the midi track?

Same goes for Omnisphere, when going to multi and taking a patch and routing it to lets say ch 1 out B and letting that come through on a separate audio track its so much fuller/louder as opposed to playback on the midi track.

If I try to do it to a plug-in just by routing the audio to setting to a separate audio track it does not have the same effect, the audio in this case plays at exactly the same fullness/level, it seems to openly happen when routing out off the vst internally.

Since it happens to both Battery and Omnisphere and they are separate companies I'm thinking its something within Ableton or other DAW's as well that causes this to happen.

I find my final results are always much nicer with audio routed out of the the VST, just had this on my mind for a couple years now but never really cared and just used it when I could and not other times, but I feel my plug-ins that don't have the ability to do it are some how not as impactful as it doesn't seem to be just a level jump but an overall quality and fullness in sound, anyone else notice this?

doghouse
Posts: 1413
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2008 5:30 pm

Re: Audio fuller/louder when routing out Battery and Omnisphere

Post by doghouse » Mon Jun 10, 2019 1:23 am

Louder, maybe, fuller...well try comparing both tracks at the same level. Louder always sounds fuller. It's the way our brains perceive sound.

So you are claiming that the volume difference only happens with Battery and Omnisphere but not with any other instruments routed to audio tracks?

Artcutech
Posts: 130
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2016 11:56 pm

Re: Audio fuller/louder when routing out Battery and Omnisphere

Post by Artcutech » Mon Jun 10, 2019 1:53 am

so I just went back and it seems Battery is about an 8db difference in level, I guess you could be right about perceiving the fuller sound as when dropping the level they sound almost identical, but it feels like the one thats not routed is slightly more veiled hence the one being routed fuller

After checking back Omnisphere seems spot on, not sure why I remember it being louder/fuller, prob got it mixed in with Battery as when having a multi going it clearly will be louder and fuller if all patches are on separate tracks but I for some reason remember individual patches being louder, sorry about that

Artcutech
Posts: 130
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2016 11:56 pm

Re: Audio fuller/louder when routing out Battery and Omnisphere

Post by Artcutech » Mon Jun 10, 2019 1:57 am

doghouse wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 1:23 am

So you are claiming that the volume difference only happens with Battery and Omnisphere but not with any other instruments routed to audio tracks?
when routed internally, so if I routed Battery in Ableton's track Audio to section to a new audio track the level change doesn't
happen

jlgrimes
Posts: 1277
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2007 1:55 am
Location: Atlanta, Ga

Re: Audio fuller/louder when routing out Battery and Omnisphere

Post by jlgrimes » Sun Jun 16, 2019 4:06 pm

Artcutech wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:13 am
I've noticed this for sometime and don't always do it as to keep things in order with other plug-ins that I don't route out from within the plug-in itself.

so in Battery when clicking on a cell and routing out to st 3/4, st 5/6 etc, and letting the audio through to a audio track as opposed to playing on the midi track it's so much fuller/louder right away, it's not even close, it seems that it might be bypassing some internal setting but all of the faders are still active, so when moving the master vst fader it works and effects the overall sound as well as everything else within the plug-in, so what is making the audio so much louder as opposed to playback on the midi track?

Same goes for Omnisphere, when going to multi and taking a patch and routing it to lets say ch 1 out B and letting that come through on a separate audio track its so much fuller/louder as opposed to playback on the midi track.

If I try to do it to a plug-in just by routing the audio to setting to a separate audio track it does not have the same effect, the audio in this case plays at exactly the same fullness/level, it seems to openly happen when routing out off the vst internally.

Since it happens to both Battery and Omnisphere and they are separate companies I'm thinking its something within Ableton or other DAW's as well that causes this to happen.

I find my final results are always much nicer with audio routed out of the the VST, just had this on my mind for a couple years now but never really cared and just used it when I could and not other times, but I feel my plug-ins that don't have the ability to do it are some how not as impactful as it doesn't seem to be just a level jump but an overall quality and fullness in sound, anyone else notice this?

This is quite common that many Samplers will load up samples at various volume levels. it is not a sound quality issue. Just a volume difference. Simpler probably does it to preserve headroom but you could override it by adjusting the volume from -12 to like -6 or even louder and save as default preset. Just keep in mind you will probably be clipping the master much easier but that is not always a problem for everyone so try it out if you want your sounds to be louder.

I personally just raise it if I have to or turn other synths down to be on same level.

Artcutech
Posts: 130
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2016 11:56 pm

Re: Audio fuller/louder when routing out Battery and Omnisphere

Post by Artcutech » Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:22 am

thanks for the response jlgrimes, lately I've been trying to do as little mixing in the creative process as possible, as before I would mix as I go and tords the end with an ampex atr 102 and a limiter on the master buss fill in the blanks, very good results as well, but I find it extremely difficult to lay vocals properly with a fully mixed arrangement, the only way to really do it is mix around your lead vocal, I've done it the other way and tried to fit the vocals on an already fully mixed song and it can be decent, even really great, but hit or miss and truly a head ache although doable. But anyways so coming down to battery and the insane 8 db difference I clearly find myself having to route to audio to get some level going even if I have to pull back a little individually as everything being played off a midi track sounds really thin and bringing the level up only to bring it down when routing is extra work, so in doing this I just always wondered why such a jump, and all on the midi track sounds veiled but clearly all cells are dedicated to one track as opposed to each on its own which is prob causes it not to sound as open

fully aware of most samplers headroom and agree with what your saying, it just seems battery with a sample set at Odb on the cell and battery master fader at Odb, it plays 8 db louder routed out and both cell volume and master fader are still active and do not become disabled as well as other cell and battery option, just an observation

speaking of samplers have you ever noticed how much work it takes for simpler or sampler to sound juicy? compared to lets say Kontakt, Form, Omnisphere? sample playback on those three is extremely juicy with depth and warmth it seems right away although none of them have the flexibility or workflow of simpler and sampler. I literally dream of a simpler/sampler with the sound/sample playback quality of FORM. Seems those three get closer to some of my hardware samplers which need absolutely no plug-ins to sound gorgeous

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