Ableton 11.1 is here, and the VST 2 workaround...

[jestermgee]

Moving VST2 manually, is not a good idea. I’ve developed hundreds of software Installers and the concept of manually moving files by the user was never part of that. But if the operation manual allows this, ok why not. With all the upcoming it problems… ohhh no!

With VST2 it’s a Common Concept to have different Folders since years. Only Ableton Live has problems with that and a weak implementation (only 2 Folders) the rest of the DAW world can handle that.

And I don‘t know any Installer that allows to set a custom VST3 Folder, that’s the way to go!

"Not a good idea" and "doesnt work" are 2 different schools of thought.

I'm a big boy and can accept the choices I make, I will move something if I feel it needs to be moved (and have the experience to know if it will have an issue). A VST plugin is rarely ever affected by installation location. Only when they have other integrations like Native Instruments with libraries and other dependencies such as NKS files etc.

With VST2 it’s a Common Concept to have different Folders since years.

Almost all pro users will suggest to try and manage your VST plugins in a single location if possible and this is why almost all installers allow you to install to a custom location.

It was only set as a custom path for users because there was no real agreement of dedicating a location and back in the 90s when VSTs were first a thing, it was probably never even imagined people would have such a large amount of them. VST3 has the set path because of the complications users create for themselves.

[MichaelAbletonForum]

Moving VST2 manually, is not a good idea. I’ve developed hundreds of software Installers and the concept of manually moving files by the user was never part of that. But if the operation manual allows this, ok why not. With all the upcoming it problems… ohhh no!

With VST2 it’s a Common Concept to have different Folders since years. Only Ableton Live has problems with that and a weak implementation (only 2 Folders) the rest of the DAW world can handle that.

And I don‘t know any Installer that allows to set a custom VST3 Folder, that’s the way to go!

"Not a good idea" and "doesnt work" are 2 different schools of thought.

I'm a big boy and can accept the choices I make, I will move something if I feel it needs to be moved (and have the experience to know if it will have an issue). A VST plugin is rarely ever affected by installation location. Only when they have other integrations like Native Instruments with libraries and other dependencies such as NKS files etc.

With VST2 it’s a Common Concept to have different Folders since years.

Almost all pro users will suggest to try and manage your VST plugins in a single location if possible and this is why almost all installers allow you to install to a custom location.

It was only set as a custom path for users because there was no real agreement of dedicating a location and back in the 90s when VSTs were first a thing, it was probably never even imagined people would have such a large amount of them. VST3 has the set path because of the complications users create for themselves.

It’s defined in the VST2 and VST3 SDK and Help Documents Using only one VST2 Folder its strong recommended by Steinberg, that’s clear. But a lot of manufacturers didn’t follow, it’s allowed it’s a recommendation. For VST3 Steinberg defines a standard Folder. So that’s the implementation to follow, or not? In my opinion Ableton Live shouldn’t use the VST3 Logo, because of the custom VST3 Folder.

Fir me a .dll (contains code) that is not on its original installation location is a virus! Sorry, i don’t want to pay 10 Bitcoins to get my music back. Uninstallers can crash, copy instead of move. Backup / restore point. etc. This is why I said not a good idea, it is not forbidden.

[jestermgee]

Fir me a .dll (contains code) that is not on its original installation location is a virus! Sorry, i don’t want to pay 10 Bitcoins to get my music back. Uninstallers can crash, copy instead of move. Backup / restore point. etc. This is why I said not a good idea, it is not forbidden.

You're overthinking and overcomplicating a pretty simple suggestion that I made, was to simply to make sure when installing that your plugins are all installed to a single location. 99% of installers out there allow you to set the path. Those that don't often suggest you just copy/paste the plugin.

[MichaelAbletonForum]

Fir me a .dll (contains code) that is not on its original installation location is a virus! Sorry, i don’t want to pay 10 Bitcoins to get my music back. Uninstallers can crash, copy instead of move. Backup / restore point. etc. This is why I said not a good idea, it is not forbidden.

You're overthinking and overcomplicating a pretty simple suggestion that I made, was to simply to make sure when installing that your plugins are all installed to a single location. 99% of installers out there allow you to set the path. Those that don't often suggest you just copy/paste the plugin.

No, I don’t! Back to the topic! With 11.1 I have 0, zero VST2 Plugins listed! Also the Plugins in the VST2 System Folder are not available! All other DAWs or Hosts that I use are working.
Why should I change my installations to a Folder that don’t work, makes no sense to me! Again using different folders with VST2 is allowed based on the VST2 definition! Additionally, based on the Ableton Live Help Pages only the VST2 dll should be placed inside the VST2 Folder, there are some installers that put a lot of additional files into that folder! One solution for me could be VST3 , but the implementation within Live is not working for me. (live performance), but that’s another topic!

[Mark Williams]

No, I don’t! Back to the topic! With 11.1 I have 0, zero VST2 Plugins listed! Also the Plugins in the VST2 System Folder are not available! All other DAWs or Hosts that I use are working.
Why should I change my installations to a Folder that don’t work, makes no sense to me! Again using different folders with VST2 is allowed based on the VST2 definition! Additionally, based on the Ableton Live Help Pages only the VST2 dll should be placed inside the VST2 Folder, there are some installers that put a lot of additional files into that folder! One solution for me could be VST3 , but the implementation within Live is not working for me. (live performance), but that’s another topic!

As Jester pointed out, it is ok to move those vst2 plugins, and the huge vast majority of installers do allow you to change installation folders, only exception I ever came across was Waves, but copied the required waveshell into my VST2 plugin folder located at C:\VST, and works, its all quite simple & straightforward. No use blaming others for something which you are not prepared to do.

FYI, there is not set standard for VST2 system folder as you say, VST3 yes but not VST2.

[MichaelAbletonForum]

No, I don’t! Back to the topic! With 11.1 I have 0, zero VST2 Plugins listed! Also the Plugins in the VST2 System Folder are not available! All other DAWs or Hosts that I use are working.
Why should I change my installations to a Folder that don’t work, makes no sense to me! Again using different folders with VST2 is allowed based on the VST2 definition! Additionally, based on the Ableton Live Help Pages only the VST2 dll should be placed inside the VST2 Folder, there are some installers that put a lot of additional files into that folder! One solution for me could be VST3 , but the implementation within Live is not working for me. (live performance), but that’s another topic!

As Jester pointed out, it is ok to move those vst2 plugins, and the huge vast majority of installers do allow you to change installation folders, only exception I ever came across was Waves, but copied the required waveshell into my VST2 plugin folder located at C:\VST, and works, its all quite simple & straightforward. No use blaming others for something which you are not prepared to do.

FYI, there is not set standard for VST2 system folder as you say, VST3 yes but not VST2.

I don’t understand what you mean with blaming? Arguments, relation to the SDK, Security Risks? If you mean the implementation of VST2 and VST3 within Live 11.1: I‘d paid for that. If you mean the Bug: Reporting of a Bug is not blaming.

But nice information, if Ableton Live did not use a default system Folder and only the Custom Folder then it means: It’s now only 1 VST2 Folder but many (2) VST3 in Ableton Live.No blaming, no „99%“ but the „huge vast majority“ of hosts do it in the different direction and it works!

A workaround could be switched back! We have to run hundreds on installations one many workstations. And then we don’t know which Plugins are the stated 1% or not in the „vast major majority“ Ok for me it’s not a workaround that’s a main change! For me, please accept that!

[josefreak]

My solution fixed it easily... roll back!

This is what I ended up doing because Ableton support confirmed that it's a defect, but a release with the fix won't be out for a few months (only a beta, and I don't like using betas)

[josefreak]

Haven't we all submitted a feature request for being able to add as many folder locations as we want in the Plug-Ins Settings panel? I think I've requested this feature like 5 years ago and I've seen may others request this feature. Why is this so difficult to implement?

Well, in principle that would be solution too. (It seems Live the only DAW in which there is no such option). But again, shortcuts very good alternative for this. I even would say, perhaps better \ more quickly solution than multiplication of strings of locations in settings section.

I'm not sure what you mean by "multiplication of strings of locations". The feature would simple allow you to click a plus sign (+), and dialog box would popup, you navigate to a plugin director/folder, you click "ok". Done. If you have other locations, you just repeat the process. The good thing about this feature is that it's easy to do, rather than having to work within the operating system creating shortcuts and crap like that. Plus, it's a nice reference to be able to see all your plugin locations on one little page.

[Mark Williams]

I don’t understand what you mean with blaming? Arguments, relation to the SDK, Security Risks? If you mean the implementation of VST2 and VST3 within Live 11.1: I‘d paid for that. If you mean the Bug: Reporting of a Bug is not blaming.

But nice information, if Ableton Live did not use a default system Folder and only the Custom Folder then it means: It’s now only 1 VST2 Folder but many (2) VST3 in Ableton Live.No blaming, no „99%“ but the „huge vast majority“ of hosts do it in the different direction and it works!

A workaround could be switched back! We have to run hundreds on installations one many workstations. And then we don’t know which Plugins are the stated 1% or not in the „vast major majority“ Ok for me it’s not a workaround that’s a main change! For me, please accept that!

Havent got a clue what you mean, makes no sense, maybe give up smoking it...

[ricecrispies]

I replaced all my shortcuts with symlinks, using Double Commander instead of the command line, which made it slightly less tedious.

However, when I ran the plugin scanner again, I started getting all kinds of error messages.

First of all, I got a popup saying "A serious program error has occurred. Live will shut down after this message box is closed."

Live doesn't in fact shut down after closing the message box, but an eternity later I get a message saying that a binary relating to an XLN plugin was in the wrong place.

And then another eternity later and … … … it looks like it has completed the scan. So all the plugins are now there, except that I had to open the XLN Online Installer and change the install location of the XLN plugin in question to a subfolder of my folder of symlinks (which I called "not a symlink"). I had to do it this way or else I would have messed up Reaper's VST paths. (I still need Reaper for working with vocals.)

All in all, this has taken up a whole chunk of time I had been intending to use for some piano and bass practice, which will now have to wait until tomorrow. I'm not exactly impressed. Ableton have really messed up here.

[k512]

After going through this thread when getting hit with the same issue post upgrade, i've made a Powershell script to convert all shortcut files in my VST2 folder into symlinks to the original files.

Here's the code:

Code: Select all

mkdir oldLinks #make directory to store the previous shortcuts in, for backup purposes
Get-ChildItem *.lnk | % { #for all .lnk files (shortcuts)
	$sh = New-Object -ComObject WScript.Shell #make new shell item
	$target = $sh.CreateShortcut($_).TargetPath #create a shortcut object from the .lnk file and get the actual target path to the original file
	move-item $_ oldLinks #backup the old .lnk file, we don't need those here anymore
	New-Item -ItemType SymbolicLink -Target $target -Path ([System.IO.Path]::GetFileName($target)) #create symlink from original file to same filename here
}

Mayhaps it helps someone else...

Anyways, the fact that Ableton is unable to use more than one folder for VST2s lacks any and every kind of programmer logic. Every single DAW out there has zero issues maintaining a folder list, but apparently someone's pride at Ableton is at stake to give in and support the same.
As a software dev i find that beyond embarrassing.

[Mark Williams]

Maybe they are looking at the long term, when VST2's are no longer available, which will happen sooner or later.
VST3 doesnt have this issue, as they are installed in a system defined folder.

[ricecrispies]

Maybe they are looking at the long term, when VST2's are no longer available, which will happen sooner or later.
VST3 doesnt have this issue, as they are installed in a system defined folder.

Possibly, but if so, it's presumptuous, to say the least. It's not just obscure freeware plugins that are only available as VST2s. Even many of Native Instruments plugins aren't yet available as VST3s.

[Tarekith]

We’re already confirmed the VST2 issues are going to be addressed in an upcoming beta, no need to speculate

[ricecrispies]

I don’t understand why people don’t simply install all their plugins to a common folder. It’s simple to do and to change the path in each installer. If you forget, most cases you can simply move the plug-in or just reinstall it correctly. Makes things so much cleaner and easier to manage.

As well as the issue that you2die4 raised about creating a terrible mess if you move plugins away from where the software installers put them, many of us also have quite a few odd freeware plugins and the like that weren't installed by a software installer. Putting these in C:\Program Files is a really bad idea because it makes them harder to back up. I keep mine in a subfolder of my user folder where they get backed up by File History and my cloud backup service.