Audio level in final output

[prafullashahi]

Hi all,

recently started with Ableton Lite. I see that my final audio output is always relatively low (when I compare with songs on spotify or youtube etc)
I realized that if I have audio normalization on when exporting to mp3, it will always lower my audio even if I have set gain levels on each track and even on master track,.
So i turned normalization off and I manage audio levels of each track through automation.
Now audio levels are good. In most cases it works great, but there are a few times where some clipping occurs.
Is there a better way to have normalization and still tell Ableton that keep my master track as loud as possible without clipping? I have also seen that Ableton's level for clipping is quite low, most time my audio is perfectly fine but Ableton thinks that it's clipping and shows my master track audio in red.

Appreciate the help, thanks!

[RobrechtV]

Red means it's clipping. ¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯

If your track has short but loud peaks, you may not hear them clipping but digital audio isn't that forgiving. Ableton will have to turn everything down in order to normalize the track (i.e., to "fit" the highest peak under the non-clipping amplitude ceiling).

If you want to make the whole track louder, you need to keep those peaks under control using a limiter or compressor. That's what makes those mastered tracks on Spotify or YouTube sound so much louder: their dynamic range (the difference between the softest and the loudest sounds) has been reduced so the whole track can be close to the ceiling instead of just a few peaks that keep all the rest down.

[prafullashahi]

Thanks for the input.
so I can still keep normalization on, but I need to keep the peaks compressed.
Do you recommend adding a compressor in the master track or on the individual tracks?
I did realize that when I recorded my keyboard, it was too loud and that specific track was adding to some noise, fixed that and now it sounds better, but there's still some clipping where it gets loud.
as of now, I think all tracks are contributing to some level of clipping because individually no track has clipping.
I'm doing trial and error to reduce some of the noise in the tracks, but I don't want my track getting too low in volume..
Also, I checked the DB levels of my song online and it was like this, does it look like the average that people go for ?
Momentary Max = -3.63 LUFS
Short Term Max = -5.68 LUFS
Integrated = -8.60 LUFS

[RobrechtV]

Hm, to keep it simple maybe just start with a limiter on your master? Just to catch those peaks.

It would be good to find out where they come from, though. Does the song contain any percussion? Or another instrument with sharp attacks? Or some unwanted clicks recorded somewhere?

Getting your song loud is not a case of turning everything up as much as possible, it's about getting the whole song close to the same constant volume. It doesn't matter if that volume is low: as long as the whole song sticks to it, normalizing will take care of bringing it back up. But even a single peak that jumps out will keep all the rest away from the ceiling.

[prafullashahi]

Limiter on the master track works like magic !!!
so excited! thanks!
one more question.. if i'm using a limiter, technically i don't need normalization on if i'm already getting the most gain already, correct? I see my limiter is almost always turning down the gain by a little bit.
Also, what's a good setting level for the limiter? i mean values for gain, look ahead, release, ceiling

[jlgrimes]

Limiter on the master track works like magic !!!
so excited! thanks!
one more question.. if i'm using a limiter, technically i don't need normalization on if i'm already getting the most gain already, correct? I see my limiter is almost always turning down the gain by a little bit.
Also, what's a good setting level for the limiter? i mean values for gain, look ahead, release, ceiling

Yes,

if using a limiter, there should be no need to normalize. As your ceiling is pretty much your normalization level (pretty much and assuming your limiter is actually doing at least some gain reduction).

Ceiling depends on a few things.

A ceiling of 0 might sound fine on many systems but can distort some cheaper systems. Also lossy compression such as mp3 can often add extra gain on systems putting you back into clipping or distortion mode on cheaper systems.

Generally for lossless or uncompressed files such as FLAC or Wave, -0.5 is generally used, but for lossy formats such as mp3, -1 is generally used.

That said some people take it to 0 (to squeeze every inch of loudness) or go further lower to -2 (minimize distortion), so it depends and probably takes some experimentation. It is probably genre dependent as well as a hard agressive dance tune probably won't care much about distortion, where a film score might not be too concerned with overall loudness and probably are barely touching limiter anyways.

lookahead allows limiter to react to peaks earlier causing cleaner compression (generally) buy some might like less lookahead. Basically more lookahead can help keep transients smoother but you might like the less lookahead as some like the coloration of hard limiting. More lookahead also means more latency which might be an issue for live performances.

faster release can help things sound aggressive, where slower can smooth things. it is more adjusted to taste. Too much either way can sound bad. As like a compressor fast release can cause pumping or even distortion, where too slow can make your track sound buried and lifeless.

Usually though the default setting works pretty well for most cases with minimal gain reduction but if needing more limiting it often helps to tweak timing and lookahead. As with minimal gain reduction alot of limiting artifacts will be harder to hear. But the more you tweak the limiter you might find you can squeeze more gain reduction to create a louder mix.

[FlavioB]

As you've hit the topic "limiter on the master":
- does it make sense to put a limiter already at the beginning of each tracking/recording session?
- what are the most useful settings on a limiter? Ceiling/gain/lookahead/release (are there even more?).
- I know there are plenty of different limiters: is the standard Ableton one "just ok", or do you suggest using a different one?

Thanks!

[FlavioB]

You can add a limiter on the master at the beginning of your recording sessions but beware that most limiters add a lot of latency so that will affect your performances and timings. Also it colours the sound so it will effect how you are mixing as you make the track.

Oh, didn't know that a limiter is coloring the sound - how so?

And what about my other questions about limiter(s)?

[jlgrimes]

You can add a limiter on the master at the beginning of your recording sessions but beware that most limiters add a lot of latency so that will affect your performances and timings. Also it colours the sound so it will effect how you are mixing as you make the track.

Oh, didn't know that a limiter is coloring the sound - how so?

And what about my other questions about limiter(s)?

I can think of a few ways:

1. Changing of transients to signal. Spiky transients are normally reduced from using limiter.

2. Adding distortion/saturation to a signal. From having to fastly react to signal will add distortion. Usually limiter add minimal distortion, but with so many types, distortions, and even aliasing creeps in. Some times this is a good thing. Ableton has a color limiter device specifically to add distortion.

3. Changing of sustain portion of sound to create a swelling pumping sound.

4. Possible change in freq response. (Brighter sound sometimes)

5. Possible increase of Noise, reverb tails (usually not the limiters fault, but just limiter reacting to signal).



I think responder was just mentioning limiter changes the signal (which it does or we wouldn't be using it). And a limiter doesn't just turn up volume, it has to do stuff to signal which will always color sound to some degree. Many times it can be inaudible, subtle or even pleasant, but usually when overstressed, limiter can start to do some combination of above which can rob integrity of signal but it is up to producer/engineer to know when it is gone too far.