Saturator 'Drive' control documentation

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scg
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Saturator 'Drive' control documentation

Post by scg » Wed Mar 29, 2023 4:42 pm

Here's an easy one (probably). The help text for the Saturator 'Drive' control says:

"This adjusts the gain of the input signal as it enters Saturator.”

Which seems correct. However, the documentation says:

"Incoming signals are first clipped to the dB level set by the Drive control."

I suspect I'm just making a mental error here, but that description doesn't quite make sense to me and doesn't seem to match the observed behavior. Is the documentation's description (about clipping to the specified dB level) correct/accurate?

[jur]
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Re: Saturator 'Drive' control documentation

Post by [jur] » Wed Mar 29, 2023 10:10 pm

The Drive is a just volume knob, and as the volume entering the clipping (i.e saturation) stage increases, so does the amount of saturation.
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scg
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Re: Saturator 'Drive' control documentation

Post by scg » Wed Mar 29, 2023 10:19 pm

[jur] wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 10:10 pm
The Drive is a just volume knob, and as the volume entering the clipping (i.e saturation) stage increases, so does the amount of saturation.
Sure, I know what it does - what I'm wondering about is whether the description in the documentation is correct. (Thanks for your reply, by the way.)

[jur]
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Re: Saturator 'Drive' control documentation

Post by [jur] » Wed Mar 29, 2023 11:55 pm

I'm not seeing any problem with the documentation's description.
Is it the "to the dB level set by" that disturbs you?
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scg
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Re: Saturator 'Drive' control documentation

Post by scg » Thu Mar 30, 2023 1:01 am

[jur] wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 11:55 pm
Is it the "to the dB level set by" that disturbs you?
It's the part about the input signal being clipped to that level on the way in that I'm wondering about. If you're saying it's correct though, then presumably I'm just making a mental error (which hopefully I'll figure out eventually). Anyway, thanks for the feedback.

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Re: Saturator 'Drive' control documentation

Post by scg » Fri Apr 07, 2023 10:07 pm

Ok, I'm resurrecting my own thread here. I'm prepared to be embarrassed on this topic and have to slink off the Ableton forums for good, but I'm too curious about it to let it go.

If both the info text and documentation are correct, then the statements "adjusts the gain of the input signal" and "clips the input signal to the specified level" must be equivalent, or at least both be true. But it's not clear to me how these are the same thing.

If the documentation is correct, that means if Drive is set to its max value of +36 dB, then the incoming signal is 'first clipped' to +36 dB before being passed on. But what would that mean exactly? It seems that would leave almost any input signal unaffected, and yet obviously Drive affects the input signal over the full range of the control (+/-36 dB). In fact it seems to do exactly what you'd expect and what the info text says, which is to function as a gain/volume control. So where does the clipping come into play exactly? (Again, the documentation says the signal is first clipped by the Drive control, so we're not talking about anything that happens after that - obviously clipping can and does occur later in the signal path.)

For the record, I'm not trying to be difficult here :) But, presumably discussing and figuring out stuff like this is what the forums are for, so I'm assuming it's acceptable to pursue this a little further.

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Re: Saturator 'Drive' control documentation

Post by [jur] » Mon Apr 10, 2023 10:16 pm

I suppose that the "first clipped" is because you then have the color/eq parameters in the signal chain, or say in other words it's probably just a somehow confusing way to say that the eq is post-drive.
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scg
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Re: Saturator 'Drive' control documentation

Post by scg » Mon Apr 10, 2023 11:17 pm

Thanks for the additional reply. I realize I'm being particular, but I'm just curious (and admittedly a bit obsessive about detail). I think there may still be some open questions here, but you've already been kind enough to reply more than once, so I won't pursue it further in this thread (if I ever find any other info on the topic though, I'll come back and update the thread with whatever I find).

scg
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Re: Saturator 'Drive' control documentation

Post by scg » Mon Apr 24, 2023 2:56 pm

Just updating this thread for anyone who might read it in the future. I've more or less confirmed that this is in fact an error in the documentation - the documentation's description of the 'Drive' control isn't correct. (I really thought I was losing it there for a while! But fortunately sanity has been restored, at least as far as this particular issue goes...)

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Re: Saturator 'Drive' control documentation

Post by jlgrimes » Tue Apr 25, 2023 3:39 am

scg wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 4:42 pm
Here's an easy one (probably). The help text for the Saturator 'Drive' control says:

"This adjusts the gain of the input signal as it enters Saturator.”

Which seems correct. However, the documentation says:

"Incoming signals are first clipped to the dB level set by the Drive control."

I suspect I'm just making a mental error here, but that description doesn't quite make sense to me and doesn't seem to match the observed behavior. Is the documentation's description (about clipping to the specified dB level) correct/accurate?

I'm guessing the clipping point will depend highly on what algorithm is used. Something like Analog will probably have a bit of saturation as soon as you turn up the gain. But Digital will have a precise clipping point as it is a hard clipper. Everything else will probably be some flavor of in between Digital and Analog. Probably easy to test with Sinewaves.

scg
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Re: Saturator 'Drive' control documentation

Post by scg » Tue Apr 25, 2023 4:20 am

jlgrimes wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2023 3:39 am
I'm guessing the clipping point will depend highly on what algorithm is used. Something like Analog will probably have a bit of saturation as soon as you turn up the gain. But Digital will have a precise clipping point as it is a hard clipper. Everything else will probably be some flavor of in between Digital and Analog. Probably easy to test with Sinewaves.
That may all be accurate, but I think the 'Drive' documentation error is a separate issue. (The clipping happens later in the signal path, after drive.) In any case, I have decent confirmation at this point that the documentation is wrong, so please don't make me start questioning things again :D

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Re: Saturator 'Drive' control documentation

Post by [erm] » Tue Apr 25, 2023 4:26 am

I'll see if I can get some clarification on this.
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scg
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Re: Saturator 'Drive' control documentation

Post by scg » Tue Apr 25, 2023 4:33 am

[erm] wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2023 4:26 am
I'll see if I can get some clarification on this.
Thank you very much for that, but I should mention that the confirmation I got came from Ableton support, so I think Ableton is already aware of it and agree it's incorrect (or at least that's how I interpreted their response). Thank you though!

Diego9725
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Re: Saturator 'Drive' control documentation

Post by Diego9725 » Tue May 23, 2023 6:51 pm

Hello, I have installed the saturation knob, but when I open Ableton it does not appear, could someone help me?
Thank you

scg
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Re: Saturator 'Drive' control documentation

Post by scg » Tue May 23, 2023 7:06 pm

Diego9725 wrote:
Tue May 23, 2023 6:51 pm
Hello, I have installed the saturation knob, but when I open Ableton it does not appear, could someone help me?
Thank you
This may get moved to a new thread, as it seems to be unrelated to the documentation issue. But, since it's 'my thread', I'll respond. Saturator has various controls of course, but there's no single saturation knob as far as I'm aware (although I'm not looking at the UI right now). Also, you don't need to install Saturator, as it comes with Ableton. However, it's not included in the Lite version, so perhaps that's the issue you're running into. In any case, unless your question is specifically related to the documentation issue, I'd start a new thread, if only because that will likely get you more eyes on your question.

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