OneDrive consensus

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J_R
Posts: 66
Joined: Tue May 05, 2020 11:49 pm

OneDrive consensus

Post by J_R » Tue May 30, 2023 6:55 am

Searching "onedrive" on this forum returns 37 hits. Each seems to cite a different problem encountered in A-Live that may be attributable to OneDrive.

Googling "onedrive" on the Internet brings up a plethora of hits equating OneDrive with a dangerous and unpredictable virus, and citing how, once enabled, it's impossible to get rid of.

In my house OneDrive is installed on 4 computers. Two Win10 computers: my "General Purpose" computer and my "DAW" machine. One Win10 and one Win11 computer belonging to my wife. OneDrive has caused untold problems with all of them (deleting files, taking files off the computer to the cloud, creating hundreds of file copies, etc). Minimally, OneDrive takes over files on the Desktop, Documents, and Pictures folders submitting them to sync and backing them up (though it's not clear which is which or where the files actually reside). It can also do strange things with shortcuts which, while it is syncing will regard as problematic. In order to do these things, it's reported OneDrive makes changes to the registry. To make matters worse, although Microsoft has Help facilities (chat or phone remote-computer-control tech support for the 365 Suite), it has stopped providing tech support for OneDrive, a product that comes with the 365 Suite, completely . 'MS Help' merely asks you to "describe your problem" and tells you that you may get an email reply. (I haven't gotten one yet.)

Of all the 4 computers, I believe the one least affected may be this (DAW) machine because I have not yet dared to run A-Live (just installed Live 11.3.2_64) because I'm not comfortable enough with A-Live to know what has gone wrong if I have a problem. I want to make sure OneDrive is not the possible culprit. I try and keep my Desktop as clean as possible but still end up with lots of shortcuts on it and I've used my Documents folder extensively for storing new documents, files, folders, etc.

I cannot, from reading the 37 relevant post topics in this forum, determine anyone's opinion regarding OneDrive, except that it's presence poses an 'interesting' problem.

Is there a general consensus on:
- whether OneDrive is a problem in the DAW environment,
- and if it is,
- what can be done about it?

p.s. Should this be the subject of a "Poll"?

trz
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2021 10:34 pm

Re: OneDrive consensus

Post by trz » Tue May 30, 2023 3:12 pm

The official recommendation is to

1 make sure all relevant files are available locally
2 turn off cloud storage while working in Ableton (for OneDrive, hit the icon in the taskbar > gear in the upper right > pause syncing)

https://help.ableton.com/hc/en-us/artic ... -Practices

This is what I have been doing and it resolved my problems with hickups

brianwdowling
Posts: 28
Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2022 6:19 pm

Re: OneDrive consensus

Post by brianwdowling » Tue May 30, 2023 3:13 pm

I have used OneDrive for a number of years on multiple computers and phones and have not have any issues, other than files can take some time to synch. It will also take some time to synch one device if you haven't used it for a while. OneDrive also appears to run at different speeds depending on time of day, and geography. I've noticed sometimes while travelling it can be faster, for example in Seattle, however, I don't have any facts to support this.

My Ableton setup is that I have various folders for samples, sets, rendered final songs etc. If the synching of files is an issue, then maybe edit on a local drive and then copy up after. I have also checked the option for sets I am currently working on to always save on this device. When I've done a final edit on a set, I move that into an archive folder which is only stored on OneDrive. With any of these cloud solutions, they mostly work quite well, but file organization and picking what will synch to the cloud, and what will be on the local drive is key.

Video editing with Final Cut Pro is another matter as the files are quite large, so I typically edit these on the local drive and then copy up when the edit is complete.

iphones, M1 Mac and Intel Macs are my hardware.

I also have a Synology network storage device attached to the router, although I don't use that anymore as I have switched to OneDrive, these can also be another alternative, although you also need to back these up.

[jur]
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Location: Ableton

Re: OneDrive consensus

Post by [jur] » Tue May 30, 2023 6:39 pm

It always surprises me: on one hand one wants the faster SSD/drive because we're working with audio files, and one the other hand one wants to stream their files from internet :|
I 100% understand the syncing files dilemma, but I really think it's a terrible idea to wish for reliable performances when not streaming files locally.
Ableton Forum Moderator

J_R
Posts: 66
Joined: Tue May 05, 2020 11:49 pm

Re: OneDrive consensus

Post by J_R » Tue May 30, 2023 7:37 pm

trz wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 3:12 pm

https://help.ableton.com/hc/en-us/artic ... -Practices

This is what I have been doing and it resolved my problems with hickups
THANK YOU! for the Ableton best practices link discussing this subject. From that document: (note: these questions even MS Tech Supporters were not able to answer!)

Background: As concerns OneDrive (currently!) only three Directories are "Battlefield Folders": Desktop; Documents; and Pictures.
"Some services, such as OneDrive or iCloud, may offer the option to store only references or links to those files on your computer while the actual file resides in the cloud."
Q1- As concern the Battleground Folders, can any of the files/folders involved also be stipulated as Files on Demand?
Q2- Again, re Battleground Folders, is OneDrive storing those files/folders in the cloud or is OneDrive storing a reference to that file on the Cloud and leaving the actual file on the local drive?
Q2b - By the way, If OneDrive is merely storing a reference to the file on the cloud (leaving the actual file on your local drive) what good does that reference do if the local drive goes down. Note: It's assumed that the question can only be asked the other way "...if the cloud goes down" if armageddon occurs!
Q3- Do Shortcuts (ordinary Shortcuts, not Hard Links or Junctions which do not work with OneDrive) affect anything? Can Shortcuts be located in the Battleground Folders?

Files on Demand
The Files on Demand feature in OneDrive stores references to files on your computer while the actual file is in the cloud. Ensure that "Always keep on device" is selected to store the media files locally.
Always keep on device
Always keep on device is a (right mouseclick) feature that should allow one to stipulate that a file/folder should not be residing on the cloud. This feature doesn't seem to apply to my files/folders.
Also note https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/mso ... e2c0e4a54c "Always keep on this device" in OneDrive - what does it do and how to stop it? "...if this feature seems to be causing OneDrive (to) appears to be in the process of downloading tens of thousands of files. " (check out Microsoft's answer!)

p.s. "with hickups" is not reassuring : }

Notes: (from google search )

(How to) Disable OneDrive Files On-Demand
- Make sure you're signed in to OneDrive on your device.
- Select the OneDrive cloud icon in the Windows taskbar notification area.
In the activity center, select More > Settings.
- On the Settings tab, unselect the Save space and download files as you use them box.

With the proviso:
"If your OneDrive Files On-Demand missing in Windows 10, please ensure to install the Windows 10 Fall Creators Update or later. Because the OneDrive Files On-Demand feature is delivered with the Windows 10 Fall Creators Update."

J_R
Posts: 66
Joined: Tue May 05, 2020 11:49 pm

Re: OneDrive consensus

Post by J_R » Wed May 31, 2023 2:42 am

brianwdowling wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 3:13 pm
I have used OneDrive for a number of years on multiple computers and phones and have not have any issues, other than files can take some time to synch. It will also take some time to synch one device if you haven't used it for a while.
...
I also have a Synology network storage device attached to the router, although I don't use that anymore as I have switched to OneDrive, these can also be another alternative, although you also need to back these up.
Brian

Thanks for your response. I'm surprised you use OneDrive at all because from what I've been told there’s an extremely clear, useful, and foolproof piece of software available on the Macintosh (there’s nothing as extensive available in the Windows environment) called Time Machine which handles files AND applications. And I was told (though I don’t know I believe it) is also able to restore the Operating System if necessary. All Time Machine requires is a dedicated local hard drive. Did you ever look into that solution?

Because you seem to be getting along with OneDrive AND because you use it for Archiving purposes as well I'd like to run this by you. It's not specific to Ableton and for that reason I apologize to everyone else on this forum (but you can imagine how well it would go over in a Sleep Apnea forum!) however it seems to be something all Windows users encounter if they use any Windows Office software.

Well here goes...

I still do not understand OneDrive

I understand that:
......1) there are three ODFolders: Desktop, Documents, and Pictures.
......2) Any Folders and Files you put into the local ODFolders are:
.................a. Taken by OneDrive and put onto the Cloud.
........................... i. Question1: Is a copy of the local ODFolder’s file put onto the Cloud
...........................ii. Question 2:Is a reference to the file in the local ODFolders put onto the Cloud?
...........................iii. Question 3:Is the local ODFolder file changed to a reference to the copy of the file now on the Cloud?
...........................iv. Question 4:Are both the local ODFolder files and the Cloud files references to another file? If ‘yes’ where is this file?
.................b. OneDrive immediately begins to a) sync and b) periodically save these files
...........................i. Question:5: This seems to have nothing to do with the concept of Backup, which is that thing that happens when you activate a “Backup” feature for one, two, or the three OD Folders. Is this true? Or is what happens to ODFolder files something different and OneDrive is patiently waiting for you to explicitly instruct it to Backup?
...........................ii. Question 6: What is the periodic rate? Is the file in question (wherever it is!!) saved every 15 minutes; 20 minutes, ??
...........................iii. Question 7: How do you retrieve this file that is a) being updated b) being periodically saved? What is the mechanism by which you specify: “I want the state of the document ‘60 minutes’ into my edits.” Or “I want the current (hopefully) up to date state of the document.”
...........................iv. Question 8: Can you request something like: I want the state of the document 7 days ago at 4PM?
.................c. And then there’s the question:
...........................i. Question 9: If, within the ODFolder environment, you want to have access to these OneDrive capabilities (periodic saving; constant syncing…) do you have to be working on the image (no technicality intended) appearing on the cloud? Or the image appearing on the local ODFolder?
...........................ii. Question 10: If the answer to 9 is the cloud image, what happens if you edit the local image, and vice versa?
.................d. Leaving the ODFolder environment, you can Archive Files to OneDrive.

If you thought the ODFolder concept was confusing, check out Archiving Files/Files on Demand.
Archiving Files involves making decisions about Files on Demand. What’s not clear https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/off ... n-us&ad=us is whether this approach is useful if you want to a) save space on your local computer; b) “change a file to ‘online-only’ which, instead of deleting it from OneDrive…well let me quote from the Microsoft document: “Yes, you can move online-only files within your OneDrive folder for that OneDrive account. When you move files outside that OneDrive folder, the files download to the new folder and are removed from your OneDrive.” However: “You can move online-only files within your OneDrive folder for that OneDrive account. When you move files outside that OneDrive folder, the files download to the new folder and are removed from your OneDrive.” In order to get this feature you must make sure you are running “Windows 10 Fall Creators Update (version 16299.15 or later).and the version of OneDrive that comes with this Windows update.” If this isn’t confusing enough you might want to see the file in question “from OneDrive mobile apps or on the website.”
.................e. Other OneDrive goodies??? Listed at the bottom of the document above.
...........................i. You can choose which OneDrive folders to show on your PC. (Where else do you show them?)
...........................ii.You can get notified when Windows automatically downloads online-only files for your apps.

btw: (I'm retired also)

brianwdowling
Posts: 28
Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2022 6:19 pm

Re: OneDrive consensus

Post by brianwdowling » Wed May 31, 2023 5:30 am

I don't use the standard OneDrive folders, I have my own folder structure that I synch, as I never use the standard way that Windows or Macs organize files as I want to control all of this myself, since I have so many files. Photography is also a hobby and I have quite a few photos.

So an example folder with some example of my file structure as follows:

music_ableton_sets
music_ableton_sets_archive
music_ableton_user_library
music_samples
music_sheet_music_banjo
music_sheet_music_dulcimer

These are all resident in OneDrive, and I can access these from any of my devices, for example, the sheet music folders, have all my sheet music in PDF so I can access on my phone and my computers.

DropBox, Box, Google Docs all work in a similar fashion, and with each laptop, you can choose which folders will show on a local drive. So when I do video editing on a local drive, and I am finished, I change the setting on that folder to that it is only stored in the cloud so the folder doesn't take up space locally.

For backing up my laptops, i.e. making an image so I could restore the entire machine, I would use a specific backup solution to create an image of the drive, Time Machine in the case of apple, and save this to a hard drive, not to a cloud storage, as this would take far to long to backup and to restore.

Not sure if this all helps, there are quite a few options, like everything else.

Brian

J_R
Posts: 66
Joined: Tue May 05, 2020 11:49 pm

Re: OneDrive consensus

Post by J_R » Fri Jun 02, 2023 1:35 am

brianwdowling is very smart to not use any of OneDrive's designated autosync directories: Desktop, Documents, and Pictures (warning: Microsoft will soon designate other directories to be auto-syncd like Video, etc. They may do so without letting anyone know). Please follow in his steps.

I have finally figured out how to empty the three "Battlefield folders" (both on the local drive and on OneDrive). But I have also learned something, Ableton specific, in the process. Ableton automatically inserts into the Documents folder an Ableton folder and a Max8 folder. I do not know how important these folders are to Ableton (and Max8) functioning correctly, but I'm playing it safe and staying away from the Documents folder.

I'd recommend (unless you find out that these automatically created folders are entirely superfluous to working in Ableton Live) you do the same.

chris harbin
Posts: 254
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2023 11:23 pm

Re: OneDrive consensus

Post by chris harbin » Fri Jun 02, 2023 3:57 pm

My consensus?

HATE IT, HATE IT, HATE IT!!!!!!!

It's fine for my lappy where it's not my main music computer (for photos and such from the phone to share) but I've tried (and failed) to get it ditched on the big boi. I'm so tired of files being tied to it and being backed up (and the nag screen to get more cloud space, please, leave me alone :lol: )

Anyways, as the old "In Living Color" skit goes........ "hated it"..... ;)
Live 11.x Suite, Push 2, AMD Ryzen 7900x @ 4.7 GHZ, Windows 11, 32 GB ram, Volt 2, Nektar T4 and Atom SQ.
Also a new lappy: i7 1269, 32 gigs of ram.

trz
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2021 10:34 pm

Re: OneDrive consensus

Post by trz » Sat Jun 03, 2023 9:45 pm

J_R wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 7:37 pm
p.s. "with hickups" is not reassuring : }
Sorry for not being clear: I meant that I solved the hickup problems (Live stuttering) that I had by
(1) right clicking the [One-Drive]\Documents\Ableton folder and selecting "Always keep on this device", and
(2) turning sync off as described when using Ableton.

J_R
Posts: 66
Joined: Tue May 05, 2020 11:49 pm

Re: OneDrive consensus

Post by J_R » Sat Jun 03, 2023 11:06 pm

No worry.

I just use OneDrive, which I consider an accident waiting to happen, as a place where no synchronization happens; a place that does not look at or have anything to do with my Desktop, Documents, or Pictures Folders. A billowly hard drive into which I can store a backup copy of files, and get them back when/if I need them.

The problem is knowing how to clear the decks (empty the Battleground folders, making sure you have what was on your local drive before OneDrive started to mess with it) before you close off its access.

login
Posts: 1870
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2011 12:41 am

Re: OneDrive consensus

Post by login » Mon Jun 12, 2023 4:38 am

J_R wrote:
Sat Jun 03, 2023 11:06 pm
No worry.

I just use OneDrive, which I consider an accident waiting to happen, as a place where no synchronization happens; a place that does not look at or have anything to do with my Desktop, Documents, or Pictures Folders. A billowly hard drive into which I can store a backup copy of files, and get them back when/if I need them.

The problem is knowing how to clear the decks (empty the Battleground folders, making sure you have what was on your local drive before OneDrive started to mess with it) before you close off its access.
yeah, using it as the main folder for important stuff doesn't work that well for music, files are big.

Better as backup where you dump stuff from time to time.

chris harbin
Posts: 254
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2023 11:23 pm

Re: OneDrive consensus

Post by chris harbin » Fri Jun 23, 2023 1:13 pm

It blows MAJOR chunks. I recently hooked the lappy back up to get it up to date in case I need it for music production (if something borks on this machine) and Onedrive was a MESS! I don't want to disable it because I like it for photos and stuff, but it's just HORRIBLE! It moves crap to unnecessary locations and is constantly backing crap up I don't want it too (the "documents" handling is simply unacceptable! )

UGGGG, seriously considering a clean install ditching that first off.

BTW, any alternatives for doing photos and backups for droid/doze?
Live 11.x Suite, Push 2, AMD Ryzen 7900x @ 4.7 GHZ, Windows 11, 32 GB ram, Volt 2, Nektar T4 and Atom SQ.
Also a new lappy: i7 1269, 32 gigs of ram.

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