Thoughts on Push 3 standalone with just Live Intro from a DAWless user's perspective

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TheEntireRobot
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Thoughts on Push 3 standalone with just Live Intro from a DAWless user's perspective

Post by TheEntireRobot » Sun Jun 04, 2023 9:40 pm

Ableton, I've never used Live before. Push 3 Standalone is the first product of yours I've owned or used.

I typically stay away from DAWs, because I don't really enjoy using a keyboard and mouse and big screens when making music. It's just not my happy place. For the last 20+ years, whenever I've needed to record stems or produce a track, I've used a DAW, and it's been fine, but DAWs aren't really my jam. I've thought about Live, but always in the context of "well, if I was a different person, maybe I'd enjoy using Live."

Over the years, I've used a number of grooveboxes and DAWs-in-a-box like Deluge, MC-707 and AKAI Force, and I've always loved the idea of having a single box that can be both the brain of my studio as well as the brain of my music on the go, but for one reason or another, they've all fallen short for me. So I've been using a hardware MIDI sequencer + audio looper (most recently, Hapax and RC-505 mk2, but I've used many sequencers and audio loopers before those).

When Push 3 Standalone was announced, I immediately ordered it. I figured, if anyone can do this right, it would be you. And for the last few days, I've been trying to evaluate the Push 3 Standalone hardware with the "Intro" version of Live that it comes with, to try to figure out if Push 3 is for me. And I'm not going to lie, it's been rough.

Sure, my Push has crashed _many_ times, and I've encountered a bunch of weird glitches (all of which I've reported to your support and am waiting for responses to), but even if I were to ignore those issues, the Push experience has felt a bit underwhelming to me. I mean, it's designed by a leader in the industry with a top-notch interface and powerful hardware, but when I've looked for inspiration by browsing instrument devices, it's felt pretty... lacking. Like, I went looking for a halfway decent electric piano sound, a grand piano, a guitar, some horns, and I couldn't find anything. Sure, it comes with a collection of Drift sounds, but overall, that's a pretty limited sonic palette.

And then, today, a friend gifted me a Live Suite license. And what a difference that made.

Ableton, you're doing yourselves and any customer who doesn't already have a Live Suite license a huge disservice by letting them use Push 3 Standalone without all the extra devices that come with Suite. Especially since Push 3 Standalone can't run VST instruments. I'm afraid that people are going to feel like I did and struggle to justify $2000 for a very fancy MIDI sequencer + audio looper that has, franky, a relatively disappointing selection of built-in instrument devices. After using Suite for just a few hours, I feel like you've missed a huge opportunity, and I hope that you reconsider how you present Push 3 Standalone to new users of your products.

Separately, I do feel like having to buy Live Standard or Suite on top of the $2,000 spent for the Push 3 Standalone hardware is a bit extortative, but remember that I'm not already invested in the Live ecosystem. I wasn't expecting to buy Suite when I bought Push 3 Standalone, but Push with just Intro seemed like a half-baked device, whereas Push with Suite feels like a fullly featured device (albeit with a lot of unlocked potential that will come in time).

Before I had Suite, I'm not sure I would have kept Push. Especially since the Live Trial doesn't work with Push 3 Standalone. Now that I have Suite, I'll almost certainly keep Push (provided that you fix the crashing issues and hardware glitches I'm experiencing, of course). I don't expect anyone else buying Push 3 Standalone will luck into a Suite license like I did, however, and they may very well come away from the experience feeling disappointed.

With Love,
"Cowboy" Ben Alman

[Edit: updated to fix references to "Suite" which I had mistakenly called "Studio"]
Last edited by TheEntireRobot on Mon Jun 05, 2023 3:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

weston underwood
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Re: Thoughts on Push 3 standalone with just Live Intro from a DAWless user's perspective

Post by weston underwood » Sun Jun 04, 2023 10:10 pm

Top post with lashings of validity.

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Re: Thoughts on Push 3 standalone with just Live Intro from a DAWless user's perspective

Post by [jur] » Sun Jun 04, 2023 10:30 pm

Thx a lot, that was really interesting to read :wink:
It's great to have P3 feedback from non-Live users.
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hellnegative_
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Re: Thoughts on Push 3 standalone with just Live Intro from a DAWless user's perspective

Post by hellnegative_ » Sun Jun 04, 2023 11:56 pm

This has been the most common negative feedback I have see. For the standalone version of the Push 3. It’s a shame, that for $2k, it doesn’t come bundled.

M.a.r.k
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Re: Thoughts on Push 3 standalone with just Live Intro from a DAWless user's perspective

Post by M.a.r.k » Mon Jun 05, 2023 12:43 am

They did people rotten there for sure.

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Re: Thoughts on Push 3 standalone with just Live Intro from a DAWless user's perspective

Post by Tarekith » Mon Jun 05, 2023 1:40 am

Just to clarify for those who may not be used to Live’s ecosystem, Studio = Live Suite in this instance.

And yes, I too was kind of surprised that the $2k version didn’t come with at least Live Standard as well.
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Machinesworking
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Re: Thoughts on Push 3 standalone with just Live Intro from a DAWless user's perspective

Post by Machinesworking » Mon Jun 05, 2023 3:08 am

Yeah Live standard makes sense here. I get not doing current Suite owners dirty by giving Live stand alone suite right away, but standard makes total sense.

TheEntireRobot
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Re: Thoughts on Push 3 standalone with just Live Intro from a DAWless user's perspective

Post by TheEntireRobot » Mon Jun 05, 2023 3:33 am

Tarekith wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 1:40 am
Just to clarify for those who may not be used to Live’s ecosystem, Studio = Live Suite in this instance.
Whoops, I fixed my post. Thanks!

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Re: Thoughts on Push 3 standalone with just Live Intro from a DAWless user's perspective

Post by TheEntireRobot » Mon Jun 05, 2023 3:42 am

Machinesworking wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 3:08 am
Yeah Live standard makes sense here. I get not doing current Suite owners dirty by giving Live stand alone suite right away, but standard makes total sense.
I don't think Standard makes sense for Push 3 Standalone either, because it's almost the same as Intro with respect to included software instruments. Since Push can't run VST instruments, and neither Intro or Standard come with a particularly wide variety of instruments, new users would still be equally disappointed. I really think they need to load it up with the Suite software instruments and Packs to make it feel more complete.

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Re: Thoughts on Push 3 standalone with just Live Intro from a DAWless user's perspective

Post by Machinesworking » Mon Jun 05, 2023 5:35 am

TheEntireRobot wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 3:42 am
Machinesworking wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 3:08 am
Yeah Live standard makes sense here. I get not doing current Suite owners dirty by giving Live stand alone suite right away, but standard makes total sense.
I don't think Standard makes sense for Push 3 Standalone either, because it's almost the same as Intro with respect to included software instruments. Since Push can't run VST instruments, and neither Intro or Standard come with a particularly wide variety of instruments, new users would still be equally disappointed. I really think they need to load it up with the Suite software instruments and Packs to make it feel more complete.
Just thinking like a capitalist, because that's how all this works in the end, Suite is at least $530 right now, where do they fit that in? it's $1k for the stand alone engine, $1k for the controller. IMO it would end up consting at least $2,500 for Push 3 with Suite unless they dropped the price of Suite, sold the stand alone upgrade for less, or the controller for less.

I get it, the whole package is a lot of money, but considering they were capable of spending a couple years developing a stand alone Push 3 in the first place which I would argue without even playing it flatly beats all the other stand alones out there, I'm fine with it. It's painful, but setting up Push 2, the Seaboard Block, Babyface and Launchpad to do the same things I'll be doing with Push 3, is more painful.

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Re: Thoughts on Push 3 standalone with just Live Intro from a DAWless user's perspective

Post by Angstrom » Mon Jun 05, 2023 10:59 am

Machinesworking wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 5:35 am

Just thinking like a capitalist, because that's how all this works in the end, Suite is at least $530 right now, where do they fit that in? it's $1k for the stand alone engine, $1k for the controller. IMO it would end up consting at least $2,500 for Push 3 with Suite unless they dropped the price of Suite, sold the stand alone upgrade for less, or the controller for less.

Well the full Push 3 experience really does cost a new customer €2348 , I dont think anyone will be singing the praises of Live lite and its limitations even with a 2 grand controller attached to it.. The 8 tracks, 16 scenes all with a tiny amount of instruments is Okayish as an extended software demo of the DAW and its workflow. Bit of course Push 3 cant have VSTs, so whats in the big expensive box? Simpler and a few effects? For 2 grand? It's just not an attractive proposition.

If I bought a new Matrixbrute and it came without just one oscillator and only half the matrix worked and there were no effects ... I wouldn't really be happy with my MatrixBrute would I. I would very likely sell it pretty quick.

Now, I know a LOT of people who bought a Push 1 or 2, they were not captivated , the Push gathered dust and eventually got sold. Those are the silent failures in the system. Those users didn't get onboard, they never "bought in" to the workflow.

What ableton want to do is establish an ongoing relationship with a customer, and lock them into a workflow with upgrades and content packs so that the Ableton financial income is predictable. Content and upgrades, and of course subscriptions are all hot topics because they satisfy bank managers.

Its not about getting new users to buy a push 3, its about locking them into a purchase cycle..
That's why that first taste has got to be amazing. Its got to be full of flavour. The first try of Push 3 to a die hard cubase user cant be Simpler, no VSTs and 8 tracks, it has to be all singing and all dancing.
It also isnt going to sell its own upgrade to suite. Its a bad advert for itself.

As for how much it would cost Ableton to bundle suite licenses?
Lets be honest, software is virtual, it wouldn't be a loss for ableton to mint 1,000,000 licenses that were locked to a Push3 unit. Because as I said those brand new novice push 3 owners are more likely to abandon a weak product than upgrade it. And the cost to ableton of a suite license is zero dollars, and the profit is content packs and upgrade fees.

But hey. Lets see what happens.
I know my prediction. Ten months from now a suite license will be included with push 3 standalone.

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Re: Thoughts on Push 3 standalone with just Live Intro from a DAWless user's perspective

Post by Machinesworking » Mon Jun 05, 2023 3:24 pm

Angstrom wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 10:59 am
As for how much it would cost Ableton to bundle suite licenses?
Lets be honest, software is virtual, it wouldn't be a loss for ableton to mint 1,000,000 licenses that were locked to a Push3 unit. Because as I said those brand new novice push 3 owners are more likely to abandon a weak product than upgrade it. And the cost to ableton of a suite license is zero dollars, and the profit is content packs and upgrade fees.

But hey. Lets see what happens.
I know my prediction. Ten months from now a suite license will be included with push 3 standalone.
Great points, but I would never win the lottery guessing what Ableton are going to do. I would have never guessed that 15 years later there's still no pitch correction solution in Live, or that after the duel monitors did not show the piano roll full screen they would buckle and give us a key command for it. A stand alone version of Push 3 was not on my Bingo card, at all. I also wouldn't have guessed at the price structure, since at first Live was cheaper than Logic, Cubase etc.

As far as Suite licenses locked to the hardware, well that falls down pretty quickly. There is no Arrangement page in P3 stand alone, so if the Suite license is hard wired and not applicable to desktop, then you're still going to have to buy a license to finish songs. If the license is a regular license then all of us with Suite are now going to sell out current Suite licenses, and be kinda miffed about the whole circus. A third solution IMO makes some sense, a beefed up standard license with Operator, Wavetable, and Sampler. Those are all in house instruments, so no third party payouts that I know of, and there's still impetus to upgrade to Suite for M4L and all the cool transferability etc. between Push 3 and your desktop/laptop setup.

In general I think Push 3 is more of a thing for existing customers, I clearly fit into this category. I started using Bitwig 3 or so years ago for MPE support etc. and was moving away from Live as one of my main DAWs. I own Suite, Push 2 etc. been a user for 20 years, but wasn't feeling it. Their last couple upgrades have been pretty great though, MIDI capture and comping, MPE, the upgrades to the way Push works in general etc. So I travel enough to start to hate setting up 4 devices to get the same functionality more or less that Push gets, sucks in hotel rooms, your moms spare room and the sometimes empty houses without wifi I'm staying in. I bought the stand alone version after some debate, and they've roped me back in at $2k in their pockets!

Now compare that to what a new user is experiencing. P3 Stand Alone doesn't have an Arrangement Page so it's some sort of dance at best to finish a song, There is a solution in M4L but then you need to own Suite. I do think you're right in that it's not going to stay the way it is. Right now the MPC in many ways is a better solution for "DAWless" users, but IMO having owned the MPC Live, I would say it's not going to take much to get Live in P3 SA to be a better far more advanced solution to DAWless than the MPCs. I mean right away for weirdos like me, I'm counting on it being easier to assign scenes to odd time signatures, and the ARM chip in the MPCs isn't half as powerful as the i3 in P3 SA.

I would bet you're right to some degree, but probably more like a generous upgrade path to Suite for P3 SA users, that makes the most sense.

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