BUG: Push 3 Timing issues. ( even with 24PPQ to ERM Multiclock)

Discuss Push with other users.
knarrrz
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon May 29, 2023 4:07 pm

Re: Push 3 Timing issues with 24PPQ to ERM Multiclock

Post by knarrrz » Wed Jun 07, 2023 10:05 am

No, the latency itself is not a bug. Wherever audio signals get digitally converted, there will be latency. It differs depending on the type of device, e.g. pure analog devices have no latency.

dest4b
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Re: Push 3 Timing issues with 24PPQ to ERM Multiclock

Post by dest4b » Wed Jun 07, 2023 10:06 am

If the clock is 15ms out of bounce it is a BUG.

And Ableton Support calls it a BUG ! Why are you thinking its not a BUG ?
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knarrrz
Posts: 20
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Re: Push 3 Timing issues with 24PPQ to ERM Multiclock

Post by knarrrz » Wed Jun 07, 2023 10:44 am

Well, I was speaking about audio latency, which is in total 15 ms in your case, this is normal and not a bug. But that Clock signals cannot be delayed respectively and are sent out too early on the Push, this is indeed a bug or missing feature.

dest4b
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Re: Push 3 Timing issues with 24PPQ to ERM Multiclock

Post by dest4b » Wed Jun 07, 2023 11:23 am

if you dont understand the Problem, why do you reply ?
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knarrrz
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Re: Push 3 Timing issues with 24PPQ to ERM Multiclock

Post by knarrrz » Wed Jun 07, 2023 11:54 am

Actually, I think I do understand. But please stay fair, there's really no reason for being angry with me.

dest4b
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Re: Push 3 Timing issues with 24PPQ to ERM Multiclock

Post by dest4b » Wed Jun 07, 2023 12:02 pm

ok then we keep in mind ..
If Ableton calls it a BUG.. then it is a BUG ;)
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dest4b
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Re: Push 3 Timing issues with 24PPQ to ERM Multiclock

Post by dest4b » Wed Jun 07, 2023 7:00 pm

Found a workaround at least for 24PPQ clock sync

If you want to sync a ERM Multiclock with push, do it the following way.

To do it in ableton:

Create a Miditrack with Sampler. Download the ERM Multiclock Pulse sample from ERM.
Use the Midifile provided by ERM or create a own with 24th notes.

save the project copy it to Push3 ( :D had accidentally written force )

On Push3 change Audio settings to 1&2 + 3&4
Set the output of the Sampler track to 3/4 or only 3 or 4 use a Y Cable on Headphone. Connect one side with ERM Multiclock.

Now you have a perfect working timing outside of Push.

In my opinion that is a internal clock handling problem of Push3 Standalone! I have the problem with Midi and CV clock but not as audio 24PPQN signal from a sampler. OIr at least Pushs audio out has a internal latency whitch received no consideration with the rest of timing.

But ... there seems also to be a Latency in Midi Note send .. here on my side BS2 20ms !

i create a new Topic about that. ;)
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dest4b
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Re: Push 3 Timing issues with 24PPQ to ERM Multiclock

Post by dest4b » Wed Jun 07, 2023 9:11 pm

Oh my dear.

update:

i have found a way .. you wont beleve:

Testing Setup

Push config:
Track 1 - Midi track CV Tools Push3 cv1 - 24PPQN Trigger 50% volume 100
Track 2 - Midi track Core Kit 707 Kick 4/4

External Hardware
ERM Multiclock -- 24PPQN frim CV1 Out of Push -> Midi Out to Drumcomputer
Drumcomputer Kick 4/4 External Sync ON ( Or CV Out only if no Drumcomputer is available )

Audio Routing:
Push to mixer or external audio interface of a computer
Drumcomputer ( Or CV Out only if no Drumcomputer is available ) to mixer or external audio interface of a computer

Recording
Ableton two audiotracks from both machines ( Push and Drumcpmputer )
arm record on both tracks in ableton - start recording
Press Play on Push

Result:
Zoom in .. you will see the Drummachine ( Or CV Out only if no Drumcomputer is available ) starts 10ms earlier then the kick from Push.

Workaround:

so i thougth hey insterting a external audio FX in the Master with a delay from 10ms should solve this.. Ok loaded up.. nothing to edit on Push.
So i created a preset in ableton:
Extrernal audio FX - > Out 1&2 Latency 10ms.
I loaded that up in Push ... and guess. .. now push is 10 ms early .. :D .. noo !
i created a new external audio fx with 0ms latency .. copyied to push..
and what .. guess.
Push and Machinedrum are on Point !! nearly 0 ms.

whaaats up ? Ableton ?
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drxcm
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Re: Push 3 Timing issues with 24PPQ to ERM Multiclock

Post by drxcm » Thu Jun 08, 2023 10:30 pm

I can confirm the same behaviour. I think this is a bug.

The latency should not be different from one output to another (when all outputs are undergoing DA conversion).

The Push3 has 8 analog outputs (main 1/2, headphone 3/4, CV 5/6, CV 7/8) and should all have the same latency. I wonder whether the ADAT outs operate in sync with the audio 1/2 outputs or whether they are even further ahead in terms of latency (as they don't have any conversion).

If you increase the audio buffer then the latency difference between audio outs and analog clock from CV output 5/6 increases with each step up in buffer size.

On Live using my usual interface there is no issue as all audio outputs are sample accurate and perfectly in sync, whereas it seems the Audio engine on Push3 and whatever engine is generating the CV outs are operating separately.

If this can't be fixed, I won't be buying a Push 3 (though I have one on loan at the moment hence the ability to test).

drxcm
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Re: Push 3 Timing issues with 24PPQ to ERM Multiclock

Post by drxcm » Fri Jun 09, 2023 1:51 am

Should probably rename the thread title by the way, this is not an issue with ERM multiclock or 22ppq in particular, but with analog clock out in all forms.

bodom76
Posts: 58
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 1:28 am

Re: Push 3 Timing issues with 24PPQ to ERM Multiclock

Post by bodom76 » Fri Jun 09, 2023 5:15 am

drxcm wrote:
Thu Jun 08, 2023 10:30 pm
I can confirm the same behaviour. I think this is a bug.

The latency should not be different from one output to another (when all outputs are undergoing DA conversion).

The Push3 has 8 analog outputs (main 1/2, headphone 3/4, CV 5/6, CV 7/8) and should all have the same latency. I wonder whether the ADAT outs operate in sync with the audio 1/2 outputs or whether they are even further ahead in terms of latency (as they don't have any conversion).

If you increase the audio buffer then the latency difference between audio outs and analog clock from CV output 5/6 increases with each step up in buffer size.

On Live using my usual interface there is no issue as all audio outputs are sample accurate and perfectly in sync, whereas it seems the Audio engine on Push3 and whatever engine is generating the CV outs are operating separately.

If this can't be fixed, I won't be buying a Push 3 (though I have one on loan at the moment hence the ability to test).
Isnt cv a much tighter sync though than midi? I feel like latency with cv should be lower. Also is there any jitter? Because if the track is recording tightly and I just need to slide everything ahead a little that’s not a huge deal.

I have had the E-rm issues in the past with some gear where it records a little early. I stopped using the erm and just recorded in everything on an mpc unsynced. I then just selected all the files and lined them up on the grid.

Not the same use case but I was thinking about sending Cv clock out of mine instead of midi since cv is typically faster and less latency. Just wondering if that is the issue. With midi Tim typically is not tight on the first downbeat. Usually takes a bar to sync up.

dest4b
Posts: 122
Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:56 am

Re: Push 3 Timing issues with 24PPQ to ERM Multiclock

Post by dest4b » Fri Jun 09, 2023 5:24 am

It is also a problem with MIDI sync in a external Gear setup. Different Latency but also there.

If i use a Samplertrack with a Pulse sample and 24th instead of CV Clock tool on Push to sync the ERM it is nearly on point.. btw. but if you record it noe in Pudh it has a Offset. If i record externally in ableton it is on point.

I have also a Midi Note issue..

If i send a Midi Note to external synth its nearly 20ms earlyer then pushs audio. So again audo is much to late and or midi to early.


If you want to test:

Cabeling

- Connect a external Synth midi / usb
Connect Pushs Audio OUT to a Mixer or external Audiointerface of a Comouter
- Connect the Synthesizers Audio OUT to a Mixer or external Audiointerface of a Comouter

Push:

Track 1 CoreKit 707 Kick to 4/4
Track 2 External Instrument. Midi out to external Synth.with 4/4 Notes - Synth with short attack.

Testing:

Record both Audiotracks in Ableton on a Computer.
Start recording before hit play on Push

Start record
Hit play.

Analysis:
Zoom in and wonder.

Yesterday i created a Liveset on Push with several midi Delays.
and i Screwed som latency in the ERM .. now i am totally tight with my outboard equipment. Externally !
.
But if ry record it now on Push i got a timing offset.

I use a max4live Midi Delay on external Instrument Midi with a delay of 17,5 ms. No it is in sync to pushs audio Out.
Negative Latency regarding to Pushs audio out.
negative 20ms!

Im shocked that so few number of peoples are running in those problems.

Maybe thats because if they use Hardware, they are Using Push as Center of the Setup without a mixer but ADAT and 10 Inputs.
For me it seems if you use Pushs audio input for recording and mixing it is nearly in Sync. Seems for me there is some Latency correction missing .. ?!;

And the Betateam ? Was there noone with a "Studio" i am confused.

Support is handeling my requests as they dont know what i am talking about :( and as i have problems understanding Ableton and with audio routing around and monitoring.on.. And i repeat.. NO Monitoring. Push is connected as all my other Instruments to a Mixer.

It seems they are not understanding the Problem. Or they know it and wont spend any word over it.
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bodom76
Posts: 58
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Re: Push 3 Timing issues with 24PPQ to ERM Multiclock

Post by bodom76 » Fri Jun 09, 2023 4:06 pm

dest4b wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2023 5:24 am
It is also a problem with MIDI sync in a external Gear setup. Different Latency but also there.

If i use a Samplertrack with a Pulse sample and 24th instead of CV Clock tool on Push to sync the ERM it is nearly on point.. btw. but if you record it noe in Pudh it has a Offset. If i record externally in ableton it is on point.

I have also a Midi Note issue..

If i send a Midi Note to external synth its nearly 20ms earlyer then pushs audio. So again audo is much to late and or midi to early.


If you want to test:

Cabeling

- Connect a external Synth midi / usb
Connect Pushs Audio OUT to a Mixer or external Audiointerface of a Comouter
- Connect the Synthesizers Audio OUT to a Mixer or external Audiointerface of a Comouter

Push:

Track 1 CoreKit 707 Kick to 4/4
Track 2 External Instrument. Midi out to external Synth.with 4/4 Notes - Synth with short attack.

Testing:

Record both Audiotracks in Ableton on a Computer.
Start recording before hit play on Push

Start record
Hit play.

Analysis:
Zoom in and wonder.

Yesterday i created a Liveset on Push with several midi Delays.
and i Screwed som latency in the ERM .. now i am totally tight with my outboard equipment. Externally !
.
But if ry record it now on Push i got a timing offset.

I use a max4live Midi Delay on external Instrument Midi with a delay of 17,5 ms. No it is in sync to pushs audio Out.
Negative Latency regarding to Pushs audio out.
negative 20ms!

Im shocked that so few number of peoples are running in those problems.

Maybe thats because if they use Hardware, they are Using Push as Center of the Setup without a mixer but ADAT and 10 Inputs.
For me it seems if you use Pushs audio input for recording and mixing it is nearly in Sync. Seems for me there is some Latency correction missing .. ?!;

And the Betateam ? Was there noone with a "Studio" i am confused.

Support is handeling my requests as they dont know what i am talking about :( and as i have problems understanding Ableton and with audio routing around and monitoring.on.. And i repeat.. NO Monitoring. Push is connected as all my other Instruments to a Mixer.

It seems they are not understanding the Problem. Or they know it and wont spend any word over it.

Well in fairness you have a pretty complex thing going on here. I had an ER-M and sometime ableton (DAW) did not sync right with it. It would record the audio notes too early. I realized this was a plugin issue, some 3rd party plugins reported latency incorrectly. Doesn't sound like its the case for you. But after that I'd always record at 48 and 32 buffer with zero plugins in the session.

I also tried to sync an MPC Live to ableton with the ERM and the MPC was insanely laggy and jittery. Old MPCs - no problem. So some pieces of hardware just suck at receiving sync. Doesn't sound like thats your issue though.

I have a Push3 standalone on the way. I understand you probably use the ERM to sync all hardware to one clock but I would try removing it from the equation to see what happens. Maybe simpify everything down to Push3 and a drum machine. You may have done that, it is just a lot to read through.

I will send MIDI sync to a TR8s and record it, just using push 3 and a midi cable. I will say that I have sold most of my hardware and I typically just sample my hardware now so this type of issue doesn't bother me much anymore. When I used a lot of external grooveboxes and drum machines, it was a hassle for sure, which is why I bought the ERM. But the Push pretty much replaces so much hardware for me and I don't need to record live jams or anything like that.

The hassle I see with your setup wil be that you can't monitor your ADAT inputs unless you make 2 tracks - one armed and off and the other on so you can monitor. Small pain, but the only way to record into ableton with no latency is with monitoring off as you are doing.

I'd just go real simple here with no plugins, no ERM and just try and get a drum machine kick recorded in and look for jitter..etc. Make sure the machine you record is not jittery (some are). The thing about using a lot of hardware is you have to isoloate everything and go one at a time when a setup is not working. Especially when troubleshooting with Ableton support.

dest4b
Posts: 122
Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:56 am

Re: Push 3 Timing issues with 24PPQ to ERM Multiclock

Post by dest4b » Fri Jun 09, 2023 4:30 pm

thats the point you wont recognize it.. until you do the test like i posted above. Because it seems you are not using a external Mixer. You use Pushs audio ins or Adat? correct?

Mysetup is not very special. and that Force and MPCs wont work as slave.. yes i know that. Because i have a Force. But compared to Push the Force is a perfect master for sendig Audio sync to ERM.

Please if you want to help.. just try it as i has writte obove. External mixer. and or Computer with audio interface.

This timing problem is on all midi and clock events. IF you use a EXTERNAL MIXER. And not Pushs audio in. Pushs audio out has a big atency regarding midi and Clock events
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dest4b
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Re: Push 3 Timing issues with 24PPQ to ERM Multiclock

Post by dest4b » Fri Jun 09, 2023 4:38 pm

drxcm wrote:
Thu Jun 08, 2023 10:30 pm

whereas it seems the Audio engine on Push3 and whatever engine is generating the CV outs are operating separately.
thats exact what i am thinking. or they just forget the latency correction. Because if you use Pushs audio ins and push as mixer and recorder all is in sync.

But for me it is a major issue.. and makes it nearly unusuable as the new Brain of my Studio. ..

But i have maybe a workaround with delay devices .. that seems to work at least for Midi . But then i could not record on Push because its not in sync if its recorded as audio. ofcourse . because of the Midi delay i added .. But with this workaround i can mix on my mixer and record on DAW

or just keeping the Force as Master. And send Push back.
Frustrating is that only 4% of people understands what this topic is about. And even the support. I have send projects for push and the description above.. and i m advised to reset push and send logfiles. :( Frustrating..

i think the main problem is that audio out is delayed about 11ms from MIDIs point of view. And maybe this 11 ms matches the internal Latency if you use pushs audio in.. thats because it is nearly tight with audio in.
Last edited by dest4b on Fri Jun 09, 2023 4:49 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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