Mapping midi note to triggering a clip : gigantic CPU spike

Discuss music production with Ableton Live.
Calagan
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Mapping midi note to triggering a clip : gigantic CPU spike

Post by Calagan » Fri Dec 01, 2023 9:06 am

Hi there

After years using Ableton Live in a studio and on stage, I only started to be interested recently in launching clips (midi or audio) from a midi controler. Yes I know, it's a bit late, but I use Live in a strange way that doesn't seem to be shared by the majority : I mostly use it as a vsti rack on stage, and the audio clips are launched only when triggering a scene. So far, no issue with that...

I only recently wanted to launch a clip in the middle of a performance, after having launched the scene corresponding to the song I'm playing.

I don't use a Push, a Novation Launchclip or these kind of midi controlers, but I was thinking I could do that from a simple midi keyboard, mapping a midi note to a specific clip in my session, just as it is explained in the manual of Live here :
https://www.ableton.com/en/manual/launching-clips/
or here :
https://www.ableton.com/en/manual/midi- ... te-control

Like you can see in the following video, it's not working at all !
Each time I launch a clip with a midi note, there's a kind of midi feedback that pauses the playback and produces a gigantic CPU spike.
https://youtu.be/PXNdBYMJCkA

I use a Novation sl MK2 as a basic midi keyboard : I don't use automap and don't use any control surface script.
Live is recognizing the SL mk2, and sometimes is forcing the automap or control surface script, so it may be an issue with this.
But so far I'm clueless as what happens...

Any insight from more experienced users ??
(I will send some email to the support also, but maybe someone here will tell me how stupid I am and it will not be necessary to wait for the next 2 weeks before receiving an answer from Ableton).

EDIT (and spoiler) : the issue comes from IAC port. It's necessary, when using IAC port, to disable the IAC remote out option in the midi settings to avoid a midi feedback loop... Then it's perfectly stable and cooool ! You can read the full thread if you want to know the process...
Last edited by Calagan on Thu Dec 07, 2023 8:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

yur2die4
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Re: Mapping midi note to triggering a clip : gigantic CPU spike

Post by yur2die4 » Fri Dec 01, 2023 12:11 pm

Kind of curious about the characteristics of the channel itself. Do you have devices on it? Anything turning off and on? Program Change messages?

It seems like when you trigger the second clip, it silences and then eventually plays.
When you trigger clip 1 while clip 2 is playing, it switches without interrupting the audio or getting a cpu hit but it changes the timing of the clip.

So it seems like clip 2 introduces something that hits the CPU and also adds latency or delay.

Calagan
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Re: Mapping midi note to triggering a clip : gigantic CPU spike

Post by Calagan » Fri Dec 01, 2023 1:55 pm

yur2die4 wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2023 12:11 pm
Kind of curious about the characteristics of the channel itself. Do you have devices on it? Anything turning off and on? Program Change messages?

It seems like when you trigger the second clip, it silences and then eventually plays.
When you trigger clip 1 while clip 2 is playing, it switches without interrupting the audio or getting a cpu hit but it changes the timing of the clip.

So it seems like clip 2 introduces something that hits the CPU and also adds latency or delay.
No, there is CPU spikes and silence for each clip, not only the clip n°2. Check the video again.
Maybe you are mistaken by the fact that at the beginning, I just launch the clips clicking with my mouse on the scene arrow.
But each time I use the midi notes, I've got the same results.

Regarding the first questions : there is no device (just a Sonimus preamp emulation and a utility device on each track) and there's not anything else turning on or off anything in this set.
It's my default set when I open Live : it's almost empty...
As far as I know, there's no program change involved.

But I will try to use another controler to see if it's maybe something connected with my Novation SL mk2...

silentio246
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Re: Mapping midi note to triggering a clip : gigantic CPU spike

Post by silentio246 » Sat Dec 02, 2023 8:41 am

It seems, there is a midi feedback (midi loop) causing the cpu spikes.
How is the midi preferences configured?
Could you try another midi-keyboard/interface?

Calagan
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Re: Mapping midi note to triggering a clip : gigantic CPU spike

Post by Calagan » Mon Dec 04, 2023 10:31 am

silentio246 wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2023 8:41 am
It seems, there is a midi feedback (midi loop) causing the cpu spikes.
How is the midi preferences configured?
Could you try another midi-keyboard/interface?
Thanks for the help.
You'll find a screenshot of my midi settings attached.
I tried a different controler (a Novation Impulse 49 keyboard), plugged in midi to my interface (no USB), and it's the same. I mean, it's a bit different (the CPU spike is not so huge) but it's glitchy as fuck.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/18c9o4Y ... sp=sharing

yur2die4
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Re: Mapping midi note to triggering a clip : gigantic CPU spike

Post by yur2die4 » Mon Dec 04, 2023 12:13 pm

What do you use the IAC for? It appears to have Remote turned on for both in and out

Calagan
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Re: Mapping midi note to triggering a clip : gigantic CPU spike

Post by Calagan » Tue Dec 05, 2023 6:57 am

yur2die4 wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2023 12:13 pm
What do you use the IAC for? It appears to have Remote turned on for both in and out
I actually use a pretty complicated setup on stage, with some dummy clips sending midi to another computer and also used as triggers for specific actions (for exemple stop all clips, trigger next scene, etc. etc.). Actually, I think I only use one side of the IAC remote control, but because I never had issues so far I never cared...

I don't know if this could have any influence on my issue (by the way, in the test session documented in the video, it's the most simple session and I don't use IAC nor any other midi mapping). But maybe I can try to turn off Remote on one side of the IAC and see what happens (I must admit that I'm often puzzled by the in/out denomination : I never know if the out is considered from the point of view of the device or from the point of view of Live).

silentio246
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Re: Mapping midi note to triggering a clip : gigantic CPU spike

Post by silentio246 » Tue Dec 05, 2023 1:03 pm

You'll find a screenshot of my midi settings attached.
I suggest to deactivate the midi ports one by one to narrow down the problem.
Complicated midi-setups can have problems.
I never know if the out is considered from the point of view of the device or from the point of view of Live).
The Out Port is the port on which Live sends data to the outside world (Midi-Interface, Midi-Controller, Virtual Midi Ports etc.).
The In Port is the port on which Live receives data from the outside world (Midi-Interface, Midi-Controller, Virtual Midi Ports etc.).

Calagan
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Re: Mapping midi note to triggering a clip : gigantic CPU spike

Post by Calagan » Tue Dec 05, 2023 4:31 pm

Thanks a lot...

I will try to experiment turning on and off some midi ports.

But basically, you confirm me that this problem is not normal ? It should be possible to trigger clips with notes ?

yur2die4
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Re: Mapping midi note to triggering a clip : gigantic CPU spike

Post by yur2die4 » Tue Dec 05, 2023 4:47 pm

The thing about mapping clips is that Live will send the same thing Out as an easy indicator of the clip’s status. This is great for something with light up pads like a Launchpad. But..

If your output device isn’t the ‘end’ of the path for the midi signal, you can risk feedback. If, instead of lighting a pad, the note is sent directly back into Live via the same ‘device’, then a Launch command sends a Launch status update out and then back into the same device, back into Live, to launch, endlessly

If you can interrupt that feedback, then you should be in a better situation.

Calagan
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Re: Mapping midi note to triggering a clip : gigantic CPU spike

Post by Calagan » Tue Dec 05, 2023 8:14 pm

yur2die4 wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2023 4:47 pm
The thing about mapping clips is that Live will send the same thing Out as an easy indicator of the clip’s status. This is great for something with light up pads like a Launchpad. But..

If your output device isn’t the ‘end’ of the path for the midi signal, you can risk feedback. If, instead of lighting a pad, the note is sent directly back into Live via the same ‘device’, then a Launch command sends a Launch status update out and then back into the same device, back into Live, to launch, endlessly

If you can interrupt that feedback, then you should be in a better situation.
Thanks a lot ! Yep, it makes sense. If I understand you good, I may turn off the out remote port of my keyboard...
Because first it doesn't serve any purpose (why did I choose that ? don't ask me, I don't remember, I will need to check also the old sessions I use on stage), and second it may lead to a midi feedback...

I will sit tomorrow in front of my keyboard and experiment with all that.

yur2die4
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Re: Mapping midi note to triggering a clip : gigantic CPU spike

Post by yur2die4 » Tue Dec 05, 2023 10:23 pm

I have a feeling it would be more related to the IAC than the keyboard. The keyboard might actually make good use of the feedback, especially if it has pads. I can’t say for sure, but in the case of the keyboard, I feel like triggering something physically on it, sends the message to the ‘Input’ of Live, and if Remote is sending the note message back out to the keyboard, the keyboard would Not take the received message and send it back out unless it was using the USB as a ‘thru’ type midi port.

I think there are also choices relating to the control surface aspect of things.

I guess it’s a bit of trial and error.

Calagan
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Re: Mapping midi note to triggering a clip : gigantic CPU spike

Post by Calagan » Wed Dec 06, 2023 9:22 am

Thanks a lot for all your posts. It helped a lot.

I just tried with my keyboard, and indeed it's the IAC bus that is making problem.
If I turn off the IAC Remote (in, out, or both), it works like a charm.

If I turn it back on, strangely it works normally just for a small moment, but very quickly I've got again the same midi loop issue.
Anyway, it's just not working with IAC remote enabled.

So it means I will need to figure out how I can configure this IAC routing differently in one of my Live set where I need it. For the moment, I can disable it in the faulty Live set where I need to map clips to keyboard notes but it will be a mess to remember to always reconfigure this in my various Live sets...
After I checked the Live set where I need IAC, I noticed that I absolutely need the in and out remote control and note enabled for it to work. If I untick any box of the IAC port, it's not working anymore : I truly need the remote and note enabled for the in and out paths...
In this Live set, I use the IAC port in a track where I did place a midi dummy clip for each song/scene. Each midi clip sends notes mapped to some functions : most notably, these clips trigger the "stop all clips" button when I'm at the end of a song (after x number of bars). It is set to send this note message to the channel 15 of IAC port (I did that so it will not have any chance to interfere with the rest of my set, where I use channels 1, 2 and 10).

But there is still something I don't understand : why do I have such an issue ???
To my understanding, enabling IAC remote in and out enable the use of a specific midi port that should be separated from other midi ports.
This issue seems to mean that all midi messages that go the mapping route are merged, so sending a C3 from my SL mkII that is mapped to a parameter means it will be merged with the IAC port, and go into feedback inside of the IAC port "space" (I don't know how to define it better).
I just did read this sentence in the Live manual, chapter 29.1.2 : "The MIDI Ports table lists all available MIDI input and output ports. To use an input port for remote control of Live, make sure the corresponding switch in its Remote column is set to ”On.” You can use any number of MIDI ports for remote mapping; Live will merge their incoming MIDI signals."

Am I understanding this right ?
How could I configure this differently in order not to have such a mess with IAC ?
And is it not a kind of bug, or at least a problem, in the mapping system of Live ?

Calagan
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Re: Mapping midi note to triggering a clip : gigantic CPU spike

Post by Calagan » Wed Dec 06, 2023 9:39 am

EDIT (to my previous post)

I actually noticed that it's possible to enable IAC port and just disable output-> remote (in the output tab, only note is enabled) and keep my dummy clip working while making the" note mapped to launch a clip" also working.

So it seems finally that I fixed my issues.

Still, I would be curious to hear why did I have such a behavior...
I'm still a little puzzled by the midi ports behavior.

silentio246
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Re: Mapping midi note to triggering a clip : gigantic CPU spike

Post by silentio246 » Wed Dec 06, 2023 2:38 pm

For me it seems logical, that the IAC port is the reason for the midiloop. The Remote Out port of Live makes only sense for a midi device like a controller or faderbox for visual feedback, a bidirectional connection between Live and the device.
yur2die4 wrote: ↑
05 Dec 2023, 17:47
The thing about mapping clips is that Live will send the same thing Out as an easy indicator of the clip’s status. This is great for something with light up pads like a Launchpad. But..

If your output device isn’t the ‘end’ of the path for the midi signal, you can risk feedback. If, instead of lighting a pad, the note is sent directly back into Live via the same ‘device’, then a Launch command sends a Launch status update out and then back into the same device, back into Live, to launch, endlessly

If you can interrupt that feedback, then you should be in a better situation.
You did interrupt that feedback, when you deactivated the Remote Out of the IAC port.

Btw: I could recreate the problem, as you have shown in the video, on my Win 10 PC. As virtual midi port i use loopmidi (https://www.tobias-erichsen.de/software/loopmidi.html) with Remote Port on. Live froze immediately, i had to force quit.

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