Am I the only one that feels like Push 2 is useless?

[Machinesworking]

not the most fair comparison though even when comparing them only by features they both should have cause it's like if ableton live could only efficiently make loops then you wouldn't have to touch a mouse to use it either. Maschine is the only product of it's kind where expert users routinely recommend creating a song in one large pattern......... if what you actually want to do is create a song...... ffs that is ridiculous

because I'm curious, and honestly I never even thought of using Maschine only to write an entire song, (I use it to write entire drum parts though), what prevents you from using Scenes in Maschine to write an entire song? It's not like you cant' rearrange the Scenes and change the lengths to any measure you want to...

Personally I've always thought of it like an MPC, you're not going to want to record vocals, guitar etc. into the simple samplers attached to pads. That's what Live is for. Plus I would rather arrange the song in Live with MIDI clips launching Scenes in Maschine. That way there's whole launch clips or parts of a song in Session view you can load without having to go into Maschine to rearrange the song there as well.

Barring all that, for the meat of a track I see nothing holding someone back from writing complete songs in Maschine, as long as you're not needing audio recordings of entire tracks etc.

[login]

My point is that your argument is deeply flawed, since it doesn't value Push on its own but on your particular case where you are more confortable using other gear.

Same stuff if I said "maschine is useless since all that I can do with Push".

Since when is it deeply flawed to compare Push to other devices that can much of the same things?
That, there, is a deeply flawed stance, any device that comes out can be compared to any similar device, period.

Your instance that in my case it's about being comfortable is presumptuous, you're assuming a lot there.
No offense but you either have a hard time with the concept of subjective opinion or you think I'm the OP here and took offense to the term 'useless' in the thread topic.
I have literally no problem with someone arguing that Push can do all Maschine can. There are benefits and downsides to both, and in a lot of ways they aren't even close to similar.
Push integrates with Live better, doesn't come in VST and AU for one, and isn't as useful in other DAWs. Push also has 4X as many drum style pads... etc.
I do agree with the OP though that if you prefer the preset browsing in Maschine and a regular keyboard, Push might seem like a waste of time. I'm happy enough with Push 1 for what I do with it, that may change when PXT General comes to Push 2.

He is not comparing, f so it would be "Maschine is better than Push doing X, Y, Z, etc.

He is dismissing Push because he can do all the stuff with maschine and a KB, that is pretty much missing the point. Each product has is streghts, weakneses and its own workflow (which will suit some individuals but not all).

Also buying stuff just because of the hype doesn't seem very wise, specially if you already have tools you are confortable with. So people ends dissapointed with a product like Puss because they don't know what they were looking for in the first place.

[Machinesworking]

He is not comparing, f so it would be "Maschine is better than Push doing X, Y, Z, etc.

He is dismissing Push because he can do all the stuff with maschine and a KB, that is pretty much missing the point. Each product has is streghts, weakneses and its own workflow (which will suit some individuals but not all).

Also buying stuff just because of the hype doesn't seem very wise, specially if you already have tools you are confortable with. So people ends dissapointed with a product like Puss because they don't know what they were looking for in the first place.

I can't disagree with that, but to clarify, he is comparing then dismissing, which I agree is silly because it's all subjective if it's not a flawed product to begin with.
(Arturia keyboards for instance, half the ones in Guitar Center here are broken already! )

Not buying things based on hype has saved me a fuck ton of $$ over the years.

[starving student]

not the most fair comparison though even when comparing them only by features they both should have cause it's like if ableton live could only efficiently make loops then you wouldn't have to touch a mouse to use it either. Maschine is the only product of it's kind where expert users routinely recommend creating a song in one large pattern......... if what you actually want to do is create a song...... ffs that is ridiculous

because I'm curious, and honestly I never even thought of using Maschine only to write an entire song, (I use it to write entire drum parts though), what prevents you from using Scenes in Maschine to write an entire song? It's not like you cant' rearrange the Scenes and change the lengths to any measure you want to...

Personally I've always thought of it like an MPC, you're not going to want to record vocals, guitar etc. into the simple samplers attached to pads. That's what Live is for. Plus I would rather arrange the song in Live with MIDI clips launching Scenes in Maschine. That way there's whole launch clips or parts of a song in Session view you can load without having to go into Maschine to rearrange the song there as well.

Barring all that, for the meat of a track I see nothing holding someone back from writing complete songs in Maschine, as long as you're not needing audio recordings of entire tracks etc.

for that much money and acclaim you shouldn't have to go into another app to arrange anything but the integration with live is nothing to write home about, it's just necessary.
might as well use a drum rack and stay in live.
but back to maschine... the answer to your question is that the sequencer isn't flexible enough, you get more flexibility by only using one long pattern than multiple ones and that is proof of counter productivity. there should be better fx automation, there should be tempo automation, different time signatures possible, recordable mutes and solos, etc... and for that price it should run external gear much better. There's no reason that any iPad sequencer should be able to outshine it' maschines midi prowess. It should at least have a songmode, and be able to merge tracks at a minimum imho. you don't think using maschine just for drums is a ripoff?, even for just drums live smokes it, and for sequencing live smokes it, and for composition and song arrangement live smokes it, and for running external gear live smokes it. Maschine won't even allow you to capture your live performance on it.

[musikmachine]

I've not heard anything in Live that smokes Maschines' drums, are you talking about the stock library or 3rd party stuff? I'm looking at a Push 1 but only cause of things like audiomodder, maschine has a great drum library but saying that i've started to create my own custom one with Splice samples but the perc on a recent EP was done with maschine, the latest track uses racks but i created four variations for dnb tracks last night in maschine just swapping out kits and loading up old patterns and groups.

There's a video with Mike Huckaby showing Maschine's strengths as an ideas generator, that's the best way to use IME, can pretty much always get the basis of a track going with it but when it comes to developing and turning it into a full arrangement it falls short and that's where Live comes in.

Integration could be better but there's stuff like MXT Live to control both from Maschine, i have an instance in my default rack and am looking at how i can set it up with 3 instances, one for drums, another for midi sequencing with the arp and chords and another for fx processing, Maschine is a great sound design tool with the komplete fx, do live edits on the fly etc.

Now looking at a Push so i can extend that workflow i have with Maschine in Live, not sure Live would replace it if i got one but i'm sure i'd do a lot more composing in Live but i think both would have there strengths and probably complement each other well.

[Tarekith]

I've not heard anything in Live that smokes Maschines' drums, are you talking about the stock library or 3rd party stuff?

Normally I'd be in full agreement with you, but the new drum sounds they added in 9.5 sound great to my ears. Easily on par with Maschine, though I'll admit you also get a lot more drum sounds with Maschine too. Anyway, worth taking a listen to the new drums in Live 9.5 if you haven't already. They even included a couple pre-made 128's.

[starving student]

I've not heard anything in Live that smokes Maschines' drums, are you talking about the stock library or 3rd party stuff? I'm looking at a Push 1 but only cause of things like audiomodder, maschine has a great drum library but saying that i've started to create my own custom one with Splice samples but the perc on a recent EP was done with maschine, the latest track uses racks but i created four variations for dnb tracks last night in maschine just swapping out kits and loading up old patterns and groups.

There's a video with Mike Huckaby showing Maschine's strengths as an ideas generator, that's the best way to use IME, can pretty much always get the basis of a track going with it but when it comes to developing and turning it into a full arrangement it falls short and that's where Live comes in.

Integration could be better but there's stuff like MXT Live to control both from Maschine, i have an instance in my default rack and am looking at how i can set it up with 3 instances, one for drums, another for midi sequencing with the arp and chords and another for fx processing, Maschine is a great sound design tool with the komplete fx, do live edits on the fly etc.

Now looking at a Push so i can extend that workflow i have with Maschine in Live, not sure Live would replace it if i got one but i'm sure i'd do a lot more composing in Live but i think both would have there strengths and probably complement each other well.

I wasn't talking about the library at all. I think native instruments can do much much better.

[zigzag]

I've not heard anything in Live that smokes Maschines' drums, are you talking about the stock library or 3rd party stuff?

Normally I'd be in full agreement with you, but the new drum sounds they added in 9.5 sound great to my ears. Easily on par with Maschine, though I'll admit you also get a lot more drum sounds with Maschine too. Anyway, worth taking a listen to the new drums in Live 9.5 if you haven't already. They even included a couple pre-made 128's.

Hi Eric,

which sounds are your referring to? How can I find them? Are they in a new pack, or?

[Tarekith]

No they're just mixed in with everything else once you install Live. That's one reason to go back and recheck the default library sounds if you haven't in awhile, quite a new goodies sprinkled throughout

[thunderkyss]

Its also very useful as a chess board Live and Push together are perfect. Why compared it to other controllers, push is made for Live only, machine isent. About the options in both controllers its a bit like pears and apples, both nice and enjoyable but quite different fruits. Use Push as a deluxe chess board if you think its useless

I agree with this. If you love Live, you'll find a way to make Push work for you.

That said, when I got Push (1) I was most excited about the scale features. After using it for a while, it turned out to be less helpful than I thought. I've been transposing my keyboard for years & it's just a lot easier than Push's scales. If you k ow your scales that is. I basically play on the white keys. Transpose down 3 steps & all the white keys are I. The key of A. Transpose up 7 steps, now they're in the key of G.

The pentatonic, arpegio, harmonic patterns are all the same. I don't need to learn new fingerings or anything. Now, I'll never be able to play anything outside the key of C on a real piano, but I'm ok with that.

[thunderkyss]

He is dismissing Push because he can do all the stuff with maschine and a KB, that is pretty much missing the point. Each product has is streghts, weakneses and its own workflow (which will suit some individuals but not all).

Also buying stuff just because of the hype doesn't seem very wise, specially if you already have tools you are confortable with. So people ends dissapointed with a product like Puss because they don't know what they were looking for in the first place.

To be fair, he's here asking if there is some other feature he may be overlooking. Something that would make Push/Live more useful to him.

If we're saying Push is only useful to those who don't know how, or don't want to learn how to play a keyboard, then that's sad.

Surely there's more to it than that.

I'd tell him, but I'm in the same boat. I bought Push (1) shortly after buying Maschine hoping to find a better workflow. I even upgraded to the full version of Live. I wish I had a long time ago because the way live works is much better suited to me as a songwriter, doing things I wish my other DAWs did a long time ago. But Maschine is quicker, for me, mainly because of it's integration with Komplete.

The main thing I like about Maschine over Push/Live, is that I can quickly build & arrange scenes mixing & matching patterns. Then arrange them along a linear timeline, repeating scenes for an AABA structure if I like. I can't do it in Push, not so easily, even though the arrange view is right there.

[starving student]

arranging in the session view is quicker than arranging on maschines timeline.

[Scoox]

5) Knobs are great but I can do that on my Midi keyboard.

Well, I have Push 2, got it for free when I bought L11 Suite. It's still sealed in its box. I have bad news though, you can't do with a generic MIDI controller what you can do with Push, because Live has the worst support of any DAW for generic MIDI controllers. One knob = one parameter. If your controller only has 16 knobs, that means you can only control 16 parameters in projects that usually have thousands of parameters. Other DAWs such as Logic, Studio One and FL Studio allow you to configure your controller so that one knob can control many things, depending on which plugin is currently the active window. In Live you can't do that.

The only way to do that in Live is using scripts or M4L. If you like nerding out that can be a lot of fun, but if you are just looking to make music, then you simply ditch the idea of using a MIDI controller.

[[jur]]

If your controller only has 16 knobs, that means you can only control 16 parameters in projects that usually have thousands of parameters. Other DAWs such as Logic, Studio One and FL Studio allow you to configure your controller so that one knob can control many things, depending on which plugin is currently the active window. In Live you can't do that.

This isn't entirely true. You can create a User Remote Script very easily and your controller will work like any supported controllers, i.e it'll have the "blue hand" and control the currently selected device.