Beginner needs help counting music

[woodamsc]

Hello I'm a beginner musician, just learning at my own pace at home. All of my time has been around learning theory and the fretboard.
I'm now dabbling with consistency + production; which means recording, looping + structuring my noodling and seeing where it goes. It's a very organic process so far.

I've noticed I struggle with counting my music properly.
When listening, I quite easily tap my foot away and bob my head and then start counting. But when I record my music in Ableton...suddenly "it's not 4/4, not 2/4, 6/4? 3/4? 8/4? 4/8???"
It never seems to line up and I'm just guessing until it's right - or it never feels right...then I'm frustrated and walk away.


The music I make just comes from my head, without any understanding of what it is I'm "hearing"
I'm too inexperienced to understand if my problem is with counting, if I'm playing too complex timings (like swing), or if I'm just playing at an inconsistent speed - making counting and warping impossible.

I would appreciate if you could listen to this short sample and give me feedback.
https://youtu.be/qHh5HcwXOdQ

In the recording I've settled on 2/4. Idk if that's right, but I count it as "1 and 2 e and uh; 1 and 2 e and uh"
But to be honest, my brain likes to count the bass notes (A, G#, F#) as "1, 2, 3, 4"

Music is fun, but as I'm tip-toe'ing into being more serious about I'm faced with the frustration of unknown unknowns getting in the way which is quite demotivating.

Ty

[jmn]

If you're counting that tune as "1 (e) and (uh) 2-e-and-uh", you probably have the right idea. As long as the numbers, and your foot tapping, are steady more or less like the metronome, you've got it. In other words, if you're counting 1-2-3-4, the time given to each number should be the same, regardless of what else is happening in the rhythm or melody of the tune. You're playing at a consistent speed so I think you're doing that. By the way, the fact that you're doing "-e-and-uh" is great - it's always easier to stay in time if you're feeling the finer subdivisions of time, whether rigid or grooving, even if (especially if) you're not playing them.

You could also count it "1 2 3-and 4-and" which would be 4/4 rather than 2/4, but those are essentially the same and really just a matter of how it's written down, not how it sounds. In time signatures 2/4 is 2 beats per measure, quarter note gets the beat (there don't have to be 4 quarters in a measure!), whereas 4/4 is 4 beats per measure, quarter note gets the beat. There's no rule that says how long a quarter note has to last. Generally, whether to write something down in 2/4 versus 4/4 mostly has to do with the feel, and with how you think about it. Usually 2/4 is used for tunes that feel kind of jaunty and might jump from one chord to another pretty consistently after two beats. Going with 2/4 for your tune feels right.

Try experimenting with Live's metronome. Type in 2/4 and listen to its high (beat one) versus low pitches. Do the same with 4/4. Now play with halving and doubling the tempo. You can make one sound a lot like the other, just with more or fewer divisions of the time.

To take a different example, 6/8 is six beats per measure, eighth note gets the beat. It often, though not always, has a feel like "row, row, row, your boat" where the first "row" is 1-2-3 and the second "row" is 4-5-6 and you're counting a steady 1-2-3-4-5-6 quite a bit quicker than you're counting your tune.

Also, while any time signature is possible, it's kind of unusual for the top number to be bigger than the bottom if they're even (6/4 and 8/4 in your message). Another way of saying that is it's common to have one whole note per measure or less than one whole note per measure, but rarely more than one. Notable exceptions are odd numbers of beats per measure: 5/4, like Take Five or Sting's Seven Days among many examples, and 9/8, which is often just three groups of three, the most famous example being Bach's Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring. You might challenge yourself to count *steadily* along with any of those.

Theory and fretboard are awesome to know! Everybody learns little by little and in a different order. Don't worry and keep making music.

[otalgia99]

In the recording I've settled on 2/4. Idk if that's right, but I count it as "1 and 2 e and uh; 1 and 2 e and uh"
But to be honest, my brain likes to count the bass notes (A, G#, F#) as "1, 2, 3, 4"

Music is fun, but as I'm tip-toe'ing into being more serious about I'm faced with the frustration of unknown unknowns getting in the way which is quite demotivating.

Ty

when referring to ee, &, and uh we generally intend to describe a SUB-division of the metric (4 subdivisions, in the case of ee, &, and uh) -- most easily described by 16th notes.

so: let's say that 1, 2, 3, and 4, are the first beats of a 4-beat measure. in 4/4 time that would look like 4 quarter notes.

when you subdivide EACH of those quarter notes into 2 (making 8th notes out of them) you'd count "1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and," IN THE SAME AMOUNT OF TIME AS you originally played the 4 lonely quarter notes. so, yeah -- you gotta play more. NOT faster! just more, in the same amount of time (yes, there IS a difference).

subdivide 'em once again making 4 beats for each ONE of of the original lonely quarter notes and you count that as
"1 ee & uh, 2 ee & uh, 3 ee & uh, 4 ee & uh" -- again, you cram MORE into the same amount of time. you don't make the whole thing move faster, you're just... well, "busier," let's say.

with that note on counting out of the way, let's talk about time signatures. now we enter the realm of "feel" -- in addition to the counting just introduced. and "feel" is... well, kinda everything.

In the recording I've settled on 2/4.

One way of imagining a difference between 2/4 and 4/4 is... your feet!

many marches are written in 2/4, predicated upon the assumption that the marchers performing these pieces have two feet.

this is a good time to point out that the time signature and the tempo are NOT necessarily related. a piece in 2 can be very slow... (Chopin's Piano Sonata #2 -- aka "the funeral march," anyone?)

whereas a piece in 4 can appear to move so fast you might rather count it in two (try miles davis track ESP -- from the record of the same name).

all that being said, we move on:

there might not seem to be much apparent difference between 2/4 & 4/4 -- until you start placing accents. if you accent the 1 of a two measure phrase, you're gonna get LEFT right, LEFT right.

accent the 1 of a 4-beat measure and you're gonna get LEFT right left right; LEFT right left right.

so now move 4-beat measure accent to the "3-ee," and tell me what you feel.

one aspect of difference between the 2/4 & 4/4 is that the 4-beat phrase, being longer, allows for a different range of emphasis and invites more variations in the way of syncopation and so forth.

whereas that straight "2-feel" falls much more easily into that "left, right, left, right" thing.

this could be one reason that your sensibilities are drawn to counting bass parts in 4 -- the bass possessing range that encompasses a more languid feel than, say, a single-impact sound like a snare drum.

when you start to understand how drummers make use of a 4-beat measure as compared with a 2-beat measure, believe me, that light over your head WILL go on.

a good way to get that lamp lit is to listen, listen, and listen some more. (maybe start with the two pieces i mentioned above!)

try to put any thought of personal creativity aside for the moment, and listen to the drums -- (if there are drums. ...in that piano sonata... not so much...)

based on the sounds you hear, how many drums can you identify in the kit? you don't have to come up with some kind of "right answer" -- you're just teaching yourself to listen, after all, so you can't get it wrong.

i know it might sound like a chore, but it's not a waste of time to even write down the names of the drums you hear that are distinctly separate sounds (remembering that one drum can make a range of different sounds).

so, why are we doing this.

because once you feel like you have a handle on that, go back and listen again to the same piece -- not for the sounds, but for the playing.

count it in 2, count it in 4 -- whatever feels right, but -- keep an ear out for those accents! the accents can be played on any drum, at any time.

but the accents in repeated phrases will guide you to a wider comprehension of how the lengths of phrases 2, 3, 4, 6... 9, even! ..or whatever.. suggest and allow for different approaches. with a bit of patience, you'll "get a feel for getting the feel" -- and you'll be able to see for yourself what seems best described by the different time signatures, and which one best applies to the feel you're trying to convey in your own creations.

o99