I’m sure that some of you will be interested to read about a sound quality comparison test of compressed audio files done by DJ mag's Stuart Holt using the Fabric club sound system:
http://www.djmag.com/djtech018.php
This online article is a companion to a printed article which goes into more detail about the compared file formats in the 25th November edition of the magazine.
What’s particularly interesting about this test is that the ‘pro’ judges couldn’t consistently pick out whether they were listening to the compressed ‘lossy’ audio or the original uncompressed versions. It also seems as though they may have actually preferred some of the lower bitrate files to the higher bitrate ones.
It’s quite straightforward to read about and understand the technical specifications of various compressed file formats and make predictions about how good they are on that basis. Previous topics on this forum which discuss mp3 vs wav and so on are full of posts from people telling others that because a certain codec dispenses with aspects of the original signal that the recorded file won’t sound ‘the same’. However I’d like to point out that this is really a matter of academic concern only. What is more important is the subjective, perceived quality of sound - what you value using your ears alone.
I can think of several examples in sound where subjective quality is high in contradiction to objective quality. The best of these is the sound of vinyl records. Many, many people rhapsodize about the character of sound coming from vinyl even though to look at its technical specification in terms of frequency response, signal to noise ratio, crosstalk etc. would lead you to expect otherwise. I remember the first time I heard my own music played back from vinyl and compared it with the (digital) master recording. I was incredibly impressed with the warmth, gloss and sparkle that cutting the music to vinyl had added. I attended the cut myself and I know that no EQ or compression had been used by the mastering engineer. The difference was all to do with the vinyl medium itself.
Does anybody know of any other subjective comparative listening tests of digital file formats that have been done using either a real club sound system or proper studio monitoring? These would preferably be ‘blind’ listening tests as it is far too easy for preconceptions to influence subjective value judgements. I wonder if anybody else has found that they preferred a technically inferior format in practice?
Sound quality test on club sound system
Sound quality test on club sound system
Last edited by Suade on Tue Dec 06, 2005 4:30 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Re: Sound quality test on club sound system
Suade wrote: What’s particularly interesting about this test is that the ‘pro’ judges couldn’t consistently pick out whether they were listening to the compressed ‘lossy’ audio or the original uncompressed versions. It also seems as though they may have actually preferred some of the lower bitrate files to the higher bitrate ones.
You have to remember that all the judges are people who've worked in clubs for the last 10 years or more.
I'm surpised they can hear anything nowadays
btw. rubbish article but thanks for pointing it out. I'm sticking to aiff/wavs
Re: Sound quality test on club sound system
robin wrote:Suade wrote: I'm surpised they can hear anything nowadays
i love the discussion of compressed vs. raw audio formats!
not really...i have decided that i do not care what someone uses as
long as i what i am hearing sounds good (on some level).
and really...if i am in a club for more than an hour or so, my hearing
has dropped to the point (and my alcohol level has risen enough), that
i am probably not going to notice a 160k mp3 slipped in with a set full
of 256 or 320.
not really...i have decided that i do not care what someone uses as
long as i what i am hearing sounds good (on some level).
and really...if i am in a club for more than an hour or so, my hearing
has dropped to the point (and my alcohol level has risen enough), that
i am probably not going to notice a 160k mp3 slipped in with a set full
of 256 or 320.
well, I know only a few clubs wich have "proper" sound installations anyways. Most of them are not good at all concerning sound quality. In their defence: it might not always matter...
I was in club 11 in amsterdam last week, where they have a whole new top of the line speaker system. Some music (from vinyl as well) didn't sound that great at all over there.
Most off the time though, I really don't give a sh*T...when i'm partying i'm partying, not mastering. (as crowd not as performer)
I was in club 11 in amsterdam last week, where they have a whole new top of the line speaker system. Some music (from vinyl as well) didn't sound that great at all over there.
Most off the time though, I really don't give a sh*T...when i'm partying i'm partying, not mastering. (as crowd not as performer)
Last edited by Nixon on Wed Dec 07, 2005 4:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Robert Henke
- Posts: 1193
- Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 10:38 am
- Location: Berlin
A guy sitting right at the center of the audience who does nothing but making sure
it sounds great and another guy next to the band doing nothing but making
sure the band gets the best sound - this is the key to great sound. Unfortunately
not exactly a club/DJ scenario. As long as the DJ gets a signal which is delayed by 5 - 50 ms from the main speakers and needs to compensate that irritation by boosing a shitty monitor till it is LOUDER then everything else while using a headphone to get the cue signal on top of this i find every discussion about sound quality quite off the point.
How many DJs and live acts make sure their mixer / soundcard is not constantly clipping ? How many boost the low end if they think the PA cannot deliver enough
low end instead of removing the very low end in order to have more energy left over in the next octave? How many are on drugs without noticing that the
perception of loudness and frequency is completly shifted? I completly agree
that a good sound system is a great thing to have while playing live or DJing,
but often the main source of bad sound is human failure and technical incompetence.
How can you make good sound if you do not compare again and again the sound
in your DJ booth with what comes out of the main speakers? How can you make
great sound if you do not take into account that an completly empty warehouse
sounds different then a packed smal bar? Some may say sound quality does
not matter. This may be true to some extend because even the best sound system
makes no good party with boring music. But listening / dancing to a DJ or
Liveact with massive bass, precise but not too loud high freuqencies, snares
you can literally grab with your hands and which still do not hurt at all or walls of sound complety sourrounding you and after you leave the club you can still hear
the birds- this makes a difference.
I remember Goldie playing years ago at Love Parade in Berlin. He entered the stage and the first thing he did was lowering the volume by something like 15 db !!!!!! The PA opened up, there was no compression anymore and the bass was still earthshaking.
Robert
it sounds great and another guy next to the band doing nothing but making
sure the band gets the best sound - this is the key to great sound. Unfortunately
not exactly a club/DJ scenario. As long as the DJ gets a signal which is delayed by 5 - 50 ms from the main speakers and needs to compensate that irritation by boosing a shitty monitor till it is LOUDER then everything else while using a headphone to get the cue signal on top of this i find every discussion about sound quality quite off the point.
How many DJs and live acts make sure their mixer / soundcard is not constantly clipping ? How many boost the low end if they think the PA cannot deliver enough
low end instead of removing the very low end in order to have more energy left over in the next octave? How many are on drugs without noticing that the
perception of loudness and frequency is completly shifted? I completly agree
that a good sound system is a great thing to have while playing live or DJing,
but often the main source of bad sound is human failure and technical incompetence.
How can you make good sound if you do not compare again and again the sound
in your DJ booth with what comes out of the main speakers? How can you make
great sound if you do not take into account that an completly empty warehouse
sounds different then a packed smal bar? Some may say sound quality does
not matter. This may be true to some extend because even the best sound system
makes no good party with boring music. But listening / dancing to a DJ or
Liveact with massive bass, precise but not too loud high freuqencies, snares
you can literally grab with your hands and which still do not hurt at all or walls of sound complety sourrounding you and after you leave the club you can still hear
the birds- this makes a difference.
I remember Goldie playing years ago at Love Parade in Berlin. He entered the stage and the first thing he did was lowering the volume by something like 15 db !!!!!! The PA opened up, there was no compression anymore and the bass was still earthshaking.
Robert
Get some engineers and run the same test on studio monitors.
Bunch of deaf DJ's listening to some sub-woofer isn't really a test of formats.
-Ben
Bunch of deaf DJ's listening to some sub-woofer isn't really a test of formats.
It's called distortion.... Tho yes it does sound cool.I was incredibly impressed with the warmth, gloss and sparkle that cutting
the music to vinyl had added.
-Ben
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Robert Henke
- Posts: 1193
- Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 10:38 am
- Location: Berlin
Oh, well Detroit...
Usually I try to be as close as possible to the audience and use as less monitoring
as possible. In Detroit my table was so far away from the stage and so far behind a more important artists setup that the sound was a complete mess between
the very powerfull main PA and the monitor. Turning the monitor level down was not an option because the main PA was too loud and the latency between the
speakers and me was too high. Turning the monitor level up till it was
much louder came close to put hot needles in my ears. Bad idea. So I came
up with my all time emergency solution: use a (very expensive) in-ear monitoring
system. It damps the environment by 26dB. If I feed in my signal I am still
18 dB - 12 dB below of the audience level. Instead of listening to the PA I
assumed it is well adjusted and if the sound in my head is fine, the PA will be
fine too. I did know that this was the case in Detroit. But I dislike this for two
main reasons: I love to play _with_ the PA. I love to EQ my tracks and apply reverb and delays till the music really fills the room. I like to change this during my sets. This is only possible if you can hear the room. How low can you go with the Level and still keep people dancing ? How massive can you be without the PA sounding like shit? You cannot judge this with in ear monitoring. And I did not have any clue, if the audience did like what i did. Well, at some point there was a break and the floor was still shaking. I assume people were dancing
In Berlin at Berghain they have the same brand of speakers and there the live act/dj is close enough to the audience. Playing there is lots of fun for this reason. And for the audience willing to party. Another story....
Robert
Usually I try to be as close as possible to the audience and use as less monitoring
as possible. In Detroit my table was so far away from the stage and so far behind a more important artists setup that the sound was a complete mess between
the very powerfull main PA and the monitor. Turning the monitor level down was not an option because the main PA was too loud and the latency between the
speakers and me was too high. Turning the monitor level up till it was
much louder came close to put hot needles in my ears. Bad idea. So I came
up with my all time emergency solution: use a (very expensive) in-ear monitoring
system. It damps the environment by 26dB. If I feed in my signal I am still
18 dB - 12 dB below of the audience level. Instead of listening to the PA I
assumed it is well adjusted and if the sound in my head is fine, the PA will be
fine too. I did know that this was the case in Detroit. But I dislike this for two
main reasons: I love to play _with_ the PA. I love to EQ my tracks and apply reverb and delays till the music really fills the room. I like to change this during my sets. This is only possible if you can hear the room. How low can you go with the Level and still keep people dancing ? How massive can you be without the PA sounding like shit? You cannot judge this with in ear monitoring. And I did not have any clue, if the audience did like what i did. Well, at some point there was a break and the floor was still shaking. I assume people were dancing
In Berlin at Berghain they have the same brand of speakers and there the live act/dj is close enough to the audience. Playing there is lots of fun for this reason. And for the audience willing to party. Another story....
Robert
i did find that strange at the time. but, we did drive for 4.5 hours to see youRobert Henke wrote: In Detroit my table was so far away from the stage and so far behind a more important artists setup...
and everyone agreed it was worth it. looks like i need to make my way
to berlin for your next show instead of detroit.
yes please.. in ear monitoring is also a good earing protection which is ALWYS good, and combining ear protection with monitoring is very clever.Paul Jay wrote:Can you give some more details about this Robert? What it is, how it works? I totally agree with what you're saying and this sounds like something worth looking deeper into....I came up with my all time emergency solution: use a (very expensive) in-ear monitoring
system