Credo wrote:wow these are the longest posts I ever have seen on this forum!
I didnt read them though...
C
these are the sort of discussions we should have more of on these forums - philosophical on the things that makes us do whats we do
Splashmash wrote:To the person who made a distinction between those who wholly create their music and those who use "found sounds":
Did these "wholly creating" musicians build their own instruments? I doubt it. These are the tools with which they create their music.
Similarly, drum samples etc are tools with which producers create music. It's just a different frame of reference.
Also, surely if producers make "music", they must be "musicians". I haven't checked the definition but i assume the meaning of musician is something like: someone who makes music.
As a final question: is a sine/square/saw wave with which you may create a synth patch a "found sound" or are people who create their own waveforms but don't use traditional instruments allowed to be called "musicians"?
I think watching musicians interacting with each other on instruments (or computers) live and feeding off the energy of an audience is the most exciting musical experience for me (on either side of the stage). Really great live bands that don't play the same songs every night, and don't play songs from (or anything like) the album, and aren't afraid to improvise, go with the flow, and feel the enegry in the room (bands like Sound Tribe Sector 9, or The New Deal) can interact with the audience/dancefloor in a way that one or a pair of djs with a less fluid medium can't come close to--give either of those bands a fair listen to their live material and you might see what i mean. Besides the fact that it is all live (except for a few vocal samples) and that it is visually exciting and sights corresponding to the sounds--the ability of a handful or great intrumentalists that have open ears, nimble hands, and lots of experience playing with and reacting to each other musically--is, imho, the ultimate musical experience--no one, not even the band, noes where it will go and what will happen, and most songs are a great deal different from night to night. When i see djs, i just don't feel as much of the that human element, that interaction of musicians in the group with both each other and all of the people in the room, that feeling of beeing on the edge. I think back to the origins of music, the beating on a drum, that tribal intreraction of the dancer and those pounding out ryhthms--thats what its all about to me, and i guess i haven't seen a guy with a few tuntables or a computer interact with the dance floor in quite the same way, or with as fluid of dynamics as a group with live instruments, but that's just what I've seen.Anonymous wrote: I personally think dancing in a room full of people who are in love with the music and don't give a fuck what the dj is doing is one of the best experiences available to humanity, and it's a shame people are still worried about what the dj/PA artist does while they play
if you can't tell that there's a world of difference between learning to play the guitar or drums and using a sample made by someone else who has learned to play that instrument, i feel sorry for you. To learn an instument, you are at first just getting your hands to go where you want. Then (hopefully) learning chords, rhythm, harmony, melody, theory and being able to apply those in a variety of settings and styles, in real time, in front of audiences. you learn how to improvise and play with others, to create from the knowledge base you have aquired over the years, yes years (and years). Writing your own music and making your own guitar/keyboard/drum/etc. parts yourself, with your own two hands is WAY different that taking a loop or beat or song that SOMEONE ELSE played on an instrument (or produced on a computer)--SOMEONE ELSE who learned how to play that instrument, someone else who's training and mind created that sound that YOU are using when you sample. Who cares who makes the instrument or computer--those are the tools, the sounds are the creations, the art. when someone creates music from these instruments they are CREATING music and sounds. When someone uses this material (remember, SOMEBODY made that loop/beat/guitar part/sample) they are SAMPLING, no matter what effects, slicing and dicing, or tempo/pitch shifting are applied, don't forget that at one point, another human created those sounds and those patterns from their head, from their sum of experiences, not yours. There is a difference between creating something yourself, and sampling something someone else created, plain and simple.Splashmash wrote:To the person who made a distinction between those who wholly create their music and those who use "found sounds":
Did these "wholly creating" musicians build their own instruments? I doubt it. These are the tools with which they create their music.
Similarly, drum samples etc are tools with which producers create music. It's just a different frame of reference.
Also, surely if producers make "music", they must be "musicians". I haven't checked the definition but i assume the meaning of musician is something like: someone who makes music.
As a final question: is a sine/square/saw wave with which you may create a synth patch a "found sound" or are people who create their own waveforms but don't use traditional instruments allowed to be called "musicians"?
Blah fucking blah. So a producer is a musician if he bangs the snare drum himself once and uses that as a sample? What if there's an engineer involved to push 'record' on the sampler's front panel? Does that make the producer a sub-musician? Or not a musician at all? Cos in that situation, you know, the producer would not have recorded it himself, and hence it would be tainted with other people's bad energy (and lice, most likely)... What if it was physically impossible for him to access the sampler's front panel while he was at the drum kit (to play ONE snare drum hit that he could then sequence), say, if it was in another room? Is that producer a musician or is he not?Anonymous wrote:if you can't tell that there's a world of difference between learning to play the guitar or drums and using a sample made by someone else who has learned to play that instrument, i feel sorry for you. To learn an instument, you are at first just getting your hands to go where you want. Then (hopefully) learning chords, rhythm, harmony, melody, theory and being able to apply those in a variety of settings and styles, in real time, in front of audiences. you learn how to improvise and play with others, to create from the knowledge base you have aquired over the years, yes years (and years). Writing your own music and making your own guitar/keyboard/drum/etc. parts yourself, with your own two hands is WAY different that taking a loop or beat or song that SOMEONE ELSE played on an instrument (or produced on a computer)--SOMEONE ELSE who learned how to play that instrument, someone else who's training and mind created that sound that YOU are using when you sample. Who cares who makes the instrument or computer--those are the tools, the sounds are the creations, the art. when someone creates music from these instruments they are CREATING music and sounds. When someone uses this material (remember, SOMEBODY made that loop/beat/guitar part/sample) they are SAMPLING, no matter what effects, slicing and dicing, or tempo/pitch shifting are applied, don't forget that at one point, another human created those sounds and those patterns from their head, from their sum of experiences, not yours. There is a difference between creating something yourself, and sampling something someone else created, plain and simple.
I agree with that, mr Guest, but if you release your novells as a post in a forum there is a risk not so many will read them. Especially if you are on 56k and pay per minute, like me.Anonymous wrote:Credo wrote:wow these are the longest posts I ever have seen on this forum!
I didnt read them though...
C
these are the sort of discussions we should have more of on these forums - philosophical on the things that makes us do whats we do
...I understand a lot more about what this is about. I would not get into discution with this guy. Theres no point. Its not about arguments or creative ideas. Its about attitude and self esteam. (Entirely built on what m-lab said. Off course I dont know this guy. He's maybe a relly good guy. Im talking principle here! Hear me.)His entire "Tuning Spork" crew made a living out of shitting on other people's music and musical ideas, all the while glorifying their own.
Anonymous wrote:if you can't tell that there's a world of difference between learning to play the guitar or drums and using a sample made by someone else who has learned to play that instrument, i feel sorry for you. To learn an instument, you are at first just getting your hands to go where you want. Then (hopefully)............ etc etc etc
---that is the quote of the year and should be immortalised -Hilarious!!!Splashmash wrote: Anyhow........ it's not how "difficult" something is that counts. It'd be damn hard to do a 60 minute fart symphony live on stage but it wouldn't be that great to listen to!!