OT: Warning very f'd up.

[LOFA]

Box Jelly fish are f'd up. Whoa.

[forge]

What is not natural is keeping the animals in cruel and inhumane conditions during their lives and maybe if people like your self rather than opting out and going vegan, instead put your money into supporting alternative ways of farming - in other words being another in the many who are boycotting cruel products and supporting the better ones then there would be more chance of this changing.

Why do you think that? If I don't support ANY form of animal products from being produced, then I do more than just go for the "better" ones. Free range meat can also become subject to abuse, if I just don't support the industry at all, I get better vegan options.
Personally I don't see the point in arguing it, hopefully at some point in the history of man we decide to eat healthy and stop using animals for food, but in the mean time I'll just do my part, which to me is to not partake.

well, really what I was responding to was LOFA saying he felt bad and guilty for eating meat and saying one day he'll go vegan, but personally I dont think it's fair that a human being which is an omnivore should have to feel like that - we SHOULD have the right to eat meat if we want to just as a dog or cat does because it is genetically in us - it's what we do - of course you should have the choice to opt out if you want (and I'm speaking as someone who was vegetarian on humane grounds for about 3 years then woke up one morning and HAD to have some meat.)

My point in the above quote was that if everyone who feels like LOFA and wants to eat meat but feels really bad about the industry, then if they put their money into less abusive forms - like free range etc then that creates a bigger stronger alternative market rather than just moving it completely which will only leave the meat industry as it is - he (like me and probably millions of others) has said he still eats the cheaper kinds of abusive products because he is poor and it's cheap - which is what so many of us do who would probably rather not, but what happens in the real world is we just carry on doing it because like it or not people like you who actually have the detmination to go the whole hog (oops, pun?) and be fully vegan are still a minority, most of us just wont.

So in the real world where most people wont go vegan, the next best thing is if the industry just changes to be less abusive, and it's more likely to happen if more people support it.

Maybe I'm being naive and idealistic, but really it's one of those quirky ironic things that despite being the big global monster, one of capitalism's plus points is because money rules everything, if those doing the BUYING change what they spend on, the suppliers will change to suit it - just compare the sheer number of "healthy" fast food shops doing salads, fresh juices, organic etc etc now to 20 years ago, likewise the McDonalds menu has been almost completely transformed arguably almost single handedly by the film "Supersize me."

Things can change and I think the masses are far more likely to just modify their habits slightly and start buying cruelty free than they are to go totally vegan.


my 2c anyway.

[forge]

wow, I was writing that last post and went off and ate dinner and watched 4 episodes of futurama and came back to this

....AND IN THE YELLOW CORNER, FROM NORTHERN NEW SOUTH WALES, FIGHTING THE CASE FOR THE NATIVE WILDLIFE OF AUSTRALIA, BEN YELLOW!! [CHEERS] AND IN THE GREEN CORNER, ALL THE WAY FROM HIS MULTI-GLOBAL CAR PRODUCTION LINE, FRESH FROM CRYOGENIC FREEZE, HENRY FORD [CHEERS] AND WHAT A MATCH!!!!!!

WOW LOFA, as someone with a pet albino rat I dont know how I feel about your glowing rat comments! Seriously though, that's probably a case in point, you have mentioned earlier about cats dealing with rats/mice - but domestic rats are actually really nice animals.....and I was amazed to find out that while they have very poor eyesight, they can actually see ultraviolet light and hear and squeak up to 50kHZ(!) and they effectively have an added 4th dimension because their sense of smell adds time to their instant perception (i.e. they know how long ago things happened and where because of smells - like dogs and cats) - so like I think Henry Ford said, we think we're amazing because of our achievements, but who says we are any more - it's entirely based on our perception....


I actually wrote a whole other tangent rant to that last thread, then cut it before I posted cause I thought it was a bit too far out, then I opened word, pasted and it was A WHOLE PAGE (should do that now and then round here - it's sometimes amazing to realise just how much shit I can talk on this forum...to think, if I was putting it all towards a degree.....)

anyway...might as well post it, cant imagine it will piss anyone off as much as Ben seems to have y'all have probably stopped reading by now anyhow....but it's written so it might as well go out into the ether.....

.........................................

{I think this universe is predatory from all angles - all living things in their natural environment on all scales are fully aware of the fact that there are predators in many different forms. It is the nature of life that it is self consuming.

Even big businessmen preying on small businesses and consumers are acting like predators. George W Bush et al are the Kings of Human predators - prepared to kill hundreds of thousands of innocent humans (not to mention wildlife caught up in it) for money, power and greed.

It just happens on the whole we were lucky enough in our evolution to figure out how to be on top of the food chain despite being not physically dominating and protect ourselves from our natural predators or threats, and so we are at a considerable advantage, but get any one of us alone in an environment where we cant use our brains or advanced tools against a predator like a crocodile or shark for example and we are the hunted and dont stand a chance. Just a couple of weeks ago a 21 year old girl was torn to pieces by a shark nearby in waters we've swam in before because it was murky and wrong time/place etc etc - she didnt stand a chance

just because we are normally at an advantage doesnt mean morally we have to completely opt out of the life cycle altogether - sure it gets abused and we end up over fishing, over farming etc, but I'm not convinced that means we have to go completely the other way, just learn to moderate it and balance it out - but that applies to humans in all aspects of life, greed is one of the most fatal flaws.

I just dont see how helpful it is feeling bad about everything we are. It's really not helpful at all.

And If any one of those cats in the video caught a mouse and toyed with it, keeping it alive in agony covered in fang wounds probably with a broken neck just so the cat can play with it and not even eating it in the end - (have you ever seen a cat toy with a half dead mouse?? not pretty...for the mouse) the cat would not feel the tiniest bit bad about it.

Likewise I'm sure those fur traders dont feel at all bad, where you or I would. And I'm sure those workers in those videos are not the most advanced of humans either in evolutionary terms, so is it really that different to other animals/predators?
really, are any of us so different to the other animals? Are we really that advanced? Some might be, but some aren’t....are we responsible for all humanity’s actions? Should we really sit around feeling bad about the actions of other thuggish humans somewhere else? Should we also then feel bad about all the cats sadistically toying with half dead mice, or sharks tearing dolphins in half? When do we stop feeling bad about things? I mean, in one sense there is something very “catholic guilt” about this whole thread….let’s find something to feel bad about – really if you want to there is no shortage of things in life to feel bad about.

so anyway the only kind of solution we can be part of is to not support them so they dont have a reason to do it, we cant tell the chinese government to stop and we cant invade china and make them. Just as we cant personally go and stop the battery hen plants. But we can sure as hell stop eating battery eggs.}

[smutek]

smutek box jelly fish are hardcore!

edit: oh just noticed they aren't box jelly fish.... look the same tho....
-Ben

Yes, well...... no..... they are not the same but they are related. Irukundji is like the Box Jellies little brother. Extremely deadly and about the size of your fingernail. Box Jellies are wicked too.

So is anyone still upset at China..... or am I now more important cause I
don't like cats and you cat ppl think they are cute? Anyone else care to join
henry and machine to make themselves look silly?

-Ben

Thats a very interesting observation. I think everyone is still upset at China, but due to your opinion you have, in a way, become China. I didn't even try to watch the video, but if I had I may have taken your opinion badly as well. I love my cats!

Not that everyone lashing out at you in this thread is the end of the world or something, but I think you would have fared better had you choosen your words more cautiously. And sometimes its best to not say anything.

[gomi]

what u think people are good for the environment?

I've never owned a "people", they're very hard to find in shops these days ...

it's illegal to own people now!

[LOFA]

"Like LOFA... he (like me and probably millions of others) has said he still eats the cheaper kinds of abusive products because he is poor and it's cheap - which is what so many of us do who would probably rather not, but what happens in the real world is we just carry on doing it because like it or not people like you who actually have the detmination to go the whole hog (oops, pun?) and be fully vegan are still a minority, most of us just wont."

I should clarify that I'm not poor. I have enough that I can consider buying Lemurs and Macbooks, but that is because I tend to work more hours than most people. It keeps me from having any time to build new bad habits, and it makes me appreciate everything a little more. I must have spent over $10,000 on my equipment without ever owning a credit card (:evil:), but that means I don't travel or rest at all. I simply can't consider myself poor. I grew up in NYC. I was poor there. Such a large percentage there "is" whatever it takes to pay their rent. Where I am now it is easier to make the distinction between poor and other. As a student/full time worker, with a dual 2g g5 I would have to consider myself other.

So in the real world where most people wont go vegan, the next best thing is if the industry just changes to be less abusive, and it's more likely to happen if more people support it.

I have given wholefoods more than enough money, but like machinesworking state I too doubt it is very helpful. I can't however off an alternative.

Once I have more time I will narrow my meat consumption even more. I will never stop eating fish. They have memory cycles that are very short. They are close enough to plants imo.

Likewise I'm sure those fur traders dont feel at all bad, where you or I would. And I'm sure those workers in those videos are not the most advanced of humans either in evolutionary terms, so is it really that different to other animals/predators?
really, are any of us so different to the other animals? Are we really that advanced? Some might be, but some aren’t....are we responsible for all humanity’s actions? Should we really sit around feeling bad about the actions of other thuggish humans somewhere else? Should we also then feel bad about all the cats sadistically toying with half dead mice, or sharks tearing dolphins in half? When do we stop feeling bad about things? I mean, in one sense there is something very “catholic guilt” about this whole thread….let’s find something to feel bad about – really if you want to there is no shortage of things in life to feel bad about.

I agree with your observation that we are omnivores. though I find my guilt to be more derived from from my mothers adopted eastern beliefs than christian guilt. My father is a carnivorous agnostic jew. He puts both elbows on the table when he eats a pork chop and has some of the lowest cholesterol on the planet. His Austrian, Russian genes seem to demand he eat meat, whereas my moms German, English, Scottish, Irish blend can make get by without. I feel like I need meat now and then, and I only feel bad when I indulge or give money to an evil corp.

[LOFA]

Also, though Lawrenceville of Arabia is my god-given name (:)) I prefer when my friends here call me either lofa (lowercase) or Ian. I was naive in the way of excessive capitalization when I first joined here... this is my first message board.

[12micsn1]

Not to go off on a rant on the subject of the first poster. How many dogs and cats are killed daily through the HUMANE SOCIETY that go un-noticed? Plenty, meaning a whole lot of deaths through euthenasia. Alot of these animals are sold to students to be dissected in a biology or vetenerian lab dipped in all kinds of chemicals we cant imagine. The others get buried or are sent to who knows where. When someone says breed like dogs and cats how many dogs and cats does a female actually have? 2-8 Dogs and cats can over populate very easy over a short period of time. China population is still largely poor in a fast growing economy an supposely people eat dogs and cats an sell fur to survive. This video testified things are very different in other places but we only see glimpses of a daily routine taking places. Im sure no one ever really bitches about how chicken and cows is slaughtered an de-feather/de-furred but if you travel to a farm you can see the harsh reality behind your very next meal with meat. Its been going on for 1000's year an how should anyone decide to stop it?

[LOFA]

Euthanasia is more or less humane.

[forge]

Euthanasia is more or less humane.

but 12micsn is pointing out what I pointed out - and machinesworking pointed out - there is far to much going on in our own back yards to be pointing the finger at other countries....but anyway, I've said more than enough on this topic and I must be getting boring

seriously, I need to give some thought to the amount of writing I do here and think about putting it to some real qualifications or something.....

[gomi]

Not to go off on a rant on the subject of the first poster. How many dogs and cats are killed daily through the HUMANE SOCIETY that go un-noticed? Plenty, meaning a whole lot of deaths through euthenasia. Alot of these animals are sold to students to be dissected in a biology or vetenerian lab dipped in all kinds of chemicals we cant imagine. The others get buried or are sent to who knows where. When someone says breed like dogs and cats how many dogs and cats does a female actually have? 2-8 Dogs and cats can over populate very easy over a short period of time. China population is still largely poor in a fast growing economy an supposely people eat dogs and cats an sell fur to survive. This video testified things are very different in other places but we only see glimpses of a daily routine taking places. Im sure no one ever really bitches about how chicken and cows is slaughtered an de-feather/de-furred but if you travel to a farm you can see the harsh reality behind your very next meal with meat. Its been going on for 1000's year an how should anyone decide to stop it?

trappers in canada skin animals for fur as well

but they usually have enough human in them to kill the animal first.

[LOFA]

Euthanasia is more or less humane.

but 12micsn is pointing out what I pointed out - and machinesworking pointed out - there is far to much going on in our own back yards to be pointing the finger at other countries....but anyway, I've said more than enough on this topic and I must be getting boring

seriously, I need to give some thought to the amount of writing I do here and think about putting it to some real qualifications or something.....

Consider a degree in a philosophy. Systems of logic, analysis, validity and arguments are intense common denominators, as is the whole reading and writing a whole lot.

[forge]

Euthanasia is more or less humane.

but 12micsn is pointing out what I pointed out - and machinesworking pointed out - there is far to much going on in our own back yards to be pointing the finger at other countries....but anyway, I've said more than enough on this topic and I must be getting boring

seriously, I need to give some thought to the amount of writing I do here and think about putting it to some real qualifications or something.....

Consider a degree in a philosophy. Systems of logic, analysis, validity and arguments are intense common denominators, as is the whole reading and writing a whole lot.

yeah, in truth I am thinking I will head to uni for the 3rd - no I think 4th try in 2007 when my boy starts school, I'm thinking I might do philoshophy as one subject, I'd also like to do history and English, and probably sociology so a BA is probably the go - probably get into teaching when the last final urge to have any kind of music career finally dies it's last death....I was thinking of doing music tech to go into teaching that but I'm beginning to seriously question the wisdom of having anything at all to do with the music industry beyond a hobby.....ho hum

[LOFA]

I know how you feel, though I haven't had the fortune of any children yet. I am hoping that grad school will open up the possibility of a professional career in something related to the professional worlds of digital art and music. I have been paying my own way through college for about 8 years now, changed my major between the arts and sciences three times, and should have graduated already had it not been for transferring and major specific electives.

I think if I grew up in Switzerland I would be publicly ridiculed for such an academic approach.

Somehow communicating on this forum helps me organize and apply everything I have studied in school, various internships, etc. I have an analytic mind, but it is very much an artists mind, as it works through tangential relationships to navigate through space. The attraction of organizing my emotions my taking music, sounds, and even whole songs and sculpting them together also serves as a powerful reference point for me, as I try to narrow down, realize my goals and attain them.

School is important though, as once I have become set in my ways it is harder to get past my own thick skull and really grow. Self imposed challenges like not eating meat serve as reference points for me as I try to develop a continous sense of discipline in my body and mind.

[charvel-floyd]

gross