Very OT, 9/11
Bloviating: def: To discourse at length in a pompous or boastful manner. Aye I'd certainly say that about covers my post - how on earth do you think we'll reach 41 let alone 91?nolus wrote:Is 'bloviating' another name for gobshite tennis ?
Feel free to pick it up and run dude cos I've gotta engineer most of the week and won't be here...one official government report is all I'm looking for.-
charvel-floyd
- Posts: 33
- Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 5:24 pm
How does this relate to the current discussion? And how do Jews/Israel always factor into any discussion dealing with conspiracy?henry ford wrote:
ha!...an IDF wet-dream
So we have an Ableton Live user who has an “ability to recognize” terrorism yet equates calculated attacks on civilians and collateral damage in war zones as the same thing. Is anybody else feeling silly about dj’s pontificating about politics? And then he/she provides us with a 60’s message of “mass murder is mass murder , and i don't give a FUCK who does it”. No it isn’t, and I’m glad that there are people who know the difference.djshiva wrote: …i don't believe terrorism is abstract at all. i just have the ability to recognize it...
...how is it that we call people who fly planes into buildings terrorists, and not people who fly planes and bomb civilians? because we are brainwashed.
...mass murder is mass murder, and i don't give a FUCK who does it.
This is sweet. I don’t know too much about Ann Coulter, but it would seem that there’s many Live users who believe that the USA purposely flew planes into their own buildings. If there ever was “there no point”, this thread would stand as a nice definition.noisetonepause wrote:Nod, the man likes Ann Coulter. There's no point.
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Ann_Coulte ... _and_Islam
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FireForEffect
- Posts: 112
- Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 1:37 am
- Location: Florida
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charvel-floyd
- Posts: 33
- Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 5:24 pm
Cheers Mr Floyd - appreciate that you were diplomatic enough to state that we may not agree politically but can still understand my request. These events are imho well past being a political issue or should be considered a political football. While FFE is kindly looking it up for us I'd urge anyone to have a read a some of todays UK articles:charvel-floyd wrote: FireForEffect, I believe this is a valid request...do you have an answer?
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/pol ... 341740.ece
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/a ... =1770&ct=5
Looks very much to me like Blair is the one we should be calling 'surrender monkey'
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noisetonepause
- Posts: 4938
- Joined: Sat Dec 28, 2002 3:38 pm
- Location: Sticks and stones
Hahaha. Oh dear, Nod.
FFE - If you're not already familiar with the Daily Mail, do read some articles and editorials on their site. It's right up your street.
FFE - If you're not already familiar with the Daily Mail, do read some articles and editorials on their site. It's right up your street.
Suit #1: I mean, have you got any insight as to why a bright boy like this would jeopardize the lives of millions?
Suit #2: No, sir, he says he does this sort of thing for fun.
Suit #2: No, sir, he says he does this sort of thing for fun.
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FireForEffect
- Posts: 112
- Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 1:37 am
- Location: Florida
What government report are you seeking? The 9/11 commisions's findings? Administration officials never claimed any Iraqi connection to the 9-11 attacks, just a mutually-advantageous relationship over the years.
The Czechs have long maintained that Atta, leader of the 9/11 hijackers in the United States, met with Ahmed al-Ani, an Iraqi intelligence official, posted to the Iraqi embassy in Prague.
That is exactly what the Czechs had been saying since shortly after 9/11: Atta, a long-time student at Germany’s Hamburg-Harburg Technical University, met with al-Ani on April 8, 2001. When Atta earlier applied for a visa to visit the Czech Republic, he identified himself as a “Hamburg student.” The discovery of the notation in al-Ani’s appointment calendar about a meeting with a “Hamburg student” provides critical corroboration of the Czech claim.
Also, take a look at Laurie Mylroie's testimony in front of the 9/11 commision->
http://www.9-11commission.gov/hearings/ ... ylroie.htm
Obviously partisan politics are in play here. It is in the Democrats best interest to see that no connection is found because that would obviously make Bush look 100% in the right for going to war in Iraq and stop cold any chance at the Democrat's getting the White House back.
I found this interview with Mansour Ijaz very interesting:
The Connection Between 9/11 and Iraq
Thursday, September 11, 2003
This is a partial transcript of Special Report with Brit Hume, September 10, that has been edited for clarity.
(START VIDEO CLIP)
HOWARD DEAN, DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Saddam Hussein had nothing to do with 9-11.
REP. DENNIS KUCINICH, D-OHIO, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11.
SENATOR BOB GRAHAM, D-FLA, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: President knew or should have known that there was no relationship between 9-11. There was no relationship between Usama Been Forgotten and Saddam Hussein.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BRIT HUME, HOST: It's an applause line. And in that case, a laughter line for the Democrats in their presidential debates. There you heard it from Howard Dean , from Dennis Kucinich and finally, there from Senator Bob Graham of Florida, the flat out statement…definitive statement, no connection between 9-11 and Iraq.
Well, certainly the administration has never claimed a connection, but is it that clear that it is definite there was not? For more on this, we turn now to FOX News foreign affairs analyst, Mansoor Ijaz, who joins us now from Berlin; the man with the best sources we know of anybody on these kinds of issues.
Mansoor, welcome. And tell us, first of all, your sense about whether it is…whether it can be definitively stated as a fact that there was no…9-11 connection to Iraq.
MANSOOR IJAZ, FOX NEWS FOREIGN AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, Brit, I'll first…I'll say to you that with regard to Howard Dean and Congressman Kucinich, you have to forgive them because they don't know any better. But I was surprised to hear Bob Graham say that since he sat in a senior position on the Senate Intelligence Committee during the course of these events.
The fact of the matter is that as early as 1994, but certainly proof positive as of 1998, the connection between Al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein was very clear. In February and March of 1998, bin Laden's No. 2 guy visited Baghdad at the request of the intelligence services of Iraq.
And he was living in Khartoum at the time at the very moment that the Sudanese intelligence chief was begging the FBI in hand written notes that were carried back and forth to come to the Sudan and look at what the data was that they had, who they were dealing with, how bin Laden's people were moving around, which ones were moving where and what they were doing.
There is no and, if's, or but's about the fact that there was a connection between al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein that early.
Now, the real question is what did they do in that two and a half weeks that they sat there and planned and plotted with each other?
We know that exactly six weeks after the meetings took place, a letter came from the FBI to the Sudanese saying we can't help you. We're not allowed to come and look at this stuff. And then six weeks after that, the embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed and the Sudanese Embassy was cased.
So I would say that these people who make that kind of an argument have really no idea what the facts are. Nor do they understand what the mendacity of Saddam was to use al Qaeda for his benefit and his purposes in carrying out terrorist attacks in other parts of the world.
HUME: Well, certainly that makes pretty good circumstantial evidence on the attacks on those embassies. And it does suggest from what you have said that there have been contacts at a high level, important level, between al Qaeda and the Iraqi regime of Saddam Hussein. But what about something that would suggest a connection to 9-11, is there evidence there of any consequence?
IJAZ: Absolutely, and now let's take it a step further after the 1998 bombings. We then know there was a training camp called Salman Pak, which we've been able to identify the aircraft that they trained, the hijackers on. We've been able to identify other contacts between Iraqi intelligence services and directly with the 9-11 hijackers.
People would love to shove that evidence under the carpet, but the fact of the matter is that the meetings did take place, planning was going on. The Iraqi diplomatic pouch was the tool of choice to pass al Qaeda's messages around the world in different parts of the world.
There was…we know for a fact that the Philippines' embassy of Iraq in manila was used for purposes of planning what was then a thwarted effort to try and hijack airplanes across the Pacific. We know that the Pakistani…I mean, the Iraqi Embassy in Islamabad was used to facilitate contact between the Taliban, bin Laden's people, and Iraqi senior scientists to collaborate on chemical and biological weapons. I know that for a fact myself that that was going on.
So, there is just no way that anybody can convince me that there is no connection. We have not yet found the forensic tie. That may be true. But to say that there's no connection whatsoever, that is absolutely not true.
HUME: Why is it that the Bush administration, in your view, has not stressed this terrorist connection more? It did for a while, but since the appeal that was made for the U.N. resolutions back last fall, you haven't heard much from the administration on this connection from.
IJAZ: You know, Brit, that's sort of a tough question to answer in one sense. But let me give you my opinion about that. That is, the Bush administration has their hands full trying to solve the problems on the ground in Iraq right now.
They did the best that they could to and try to lay everything out. They tried to make the case to the American people. I think they made a darn good case. And when they executed what they needed to and the evidence was there. The fact is that we found evidence after the war was over that this was going on.
And so for me, it's very clear what was happening. If the Democrats don't want to accept that, they're not going to win office next time if they keep this up, because the American people are too smart to let this go on forever.
HUME: Mansoor, thank you. Always a pleasure to have you.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now my question to you is...if there was an "official" document showing the connection, wouldn't you just dismiss it anyway? I'm sure the soldiers of the 3rdID pictured below would love to hear your explanation as to how there is no connection.
The Czechs have long maintained that Atta, leader of the 9/11 hijackers in the United States, met with Ahmed al-Ani, an Iraqi intelligence official, posted to the Iraqi embassy in Prague.
That is exactly what the Czechs had been saying since shortly after 9/11: Atta, a long-time student at Germany’s Hamburg-Harburg Technical University, met with al-Ani on April 8, 2001. When Atta earlier applied for a visa to visit the Czech Republic, he identified himself as a “Hamburg student.” The discovery of the notation in al-Ani’s appointment calendar about a meeting with a “Hamburg student” provides critical corroboration of the Czech claim.
Also, take a look at Laurie Mylroie's testimony in front of the 9/11 commision->
http://www.9-11commission.gov/hearings/ ... ylroie.htm
Obviously partisan politics are in play here. It is in the Democrats best interest to see that no connection is found because that would obviously make Bush look 100% in the right for going to war in Iraq and stop cold any chance at the Democrat's getting the White House back.
I found this interview with Mansour Ijaz very interesting:
The Connection Between 9/11 and Iraq
Thursday, September 11, 2003
This is a partial transcript of Special Report with Brit Hume, September 10, that has been edited for clarity.
(START VIDEO CLIP)
HOWARD DEAN, DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Saddam Hussein had nothing to do with 9-11.
REP. DENNIS KUCINICH, D-OHIO, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11.
SENATOR BOB GRAHAM, D-FLA, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: President knew or should have known that there was no relationship between 9-11. There was no relationship between Usama Been Forgotten and Saddam Hussein.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BRIT HUME, HOST: It's an applause line. And in that case, a laughter line for the Democrats in their presidential debates. There you heard it from Howard Dean , from Dennis Kucinich and finally, there from Senator Bob Graham of Florida, the flat out statement…definitive statement, no connection between 9-11 and Iraq.
Well, certainly the administration has never claimed a connection, but is it that clear that it is definite there was not? For more on this, we turn now to FOX News foreign affairs analyst, Mansoor Ijaz, who joins us now from Berlin; the man with the best sources we know of anybody on these kinds of issues.
Mansoor, welcome. And tell us, first of all, your sense about whether it is…whether it can be definitively stated as a fact that there was no…9-11 connection to Iraq.
MANSOOR IJAZ, FOX NEWS FOREIGN AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, Brit, I'll first…I'll say to you that with regard to Howard Dean and Congressman Kucinich, you have to forgive them because they don't know any better. But I was surprised to hear Bob Graham say that since he sat in a senior position on the Senate Intelligence Committee during the course of these events.
The fact of the matter is that as early as 1994, but certainly proof positive as of 1998, the connection between Al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein was very clear. In February and March of 1998, bin Laden's No. 2 guy visited Baghdad at the request of the intelligence services of Iraq.
And he was living in Khartoum at the time at the very moment that the Sudanese intelligence chief was begging the FBI in hand written notes that were carried back and forth to come to the Sudan and look at what the data was that they had, who they were dealing with, how bin Laden's people were moving around, which ones were moving where and what they were doing.
There is no and, if's, or but's about the fact that there was a connection between al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein that early.
Now, the real question is what did they do in that two and a half weeks that they sat there and planned and plotted with each other?
We know that exactly six weeks after the meetings took place, a letter came from the FBI to the Sudanese saying we can't help you. We're not allowed to come and look at this stuff. And then six weeks after that, the embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed and the Sudanese Embassy was cased.
So I would say that these people who make that kind of an argument have really no idea what the facts are. Nor do they understand what the mendacity of Saddam was to use al Qaeda for his benefit and his purposes in carrying out terrorist attacks in other parts of the world.
HUME: Well, certainly that makes pretty good circumstantial evidence on the attacks on those embassies. And it does suggest from what you have said that there have been contacts at a high level, important level, between al Qaeda and the Iraqi regime of Saddam Hussein. But what about something that would suggest a connection to 9-11, is there evidence there of any consequence?
IJAZ: Absolutely, and now let's take it a step further after the 1998 bombings. We then know there was a training camp called Salman Pak, which we've been able to identify the aircraft that they trained, the hijackers on. We've been able to identify other contacts between Iraqi intelligence services and directly with the 9-11 hijackers.
People would love to shove that evidence under the carpet, but the fact of the matter is that the meetings did take place, planning was going on. The Iraqi diplomatic pouch was the tool of choice to pass al Qaeda's messages around the world in different parts of the world.
There was…we know for a fact that the Philippines' embassy of Iraq in manila was used for purposes of planning what was then a thwarted effort to try and hijack airplanes across the Pacific. We know that the Pakistani…I mean, the Iraqi Embassy in Islamabad was used to facilitate contact between the Taliban, bin Laden's people, and Iraqi senior scientists to collaborate on chemical and biological weapons. I know that for a fact myself that that was going on.
So, there is just no way that anybody can convince me that there is no connection. We have not yet found the forensic tie. That may be true. But to say that there's no connection whatsoever, that is absolutely not true.
HUME: Why is it that the Bush administration, in your view, has not stressed this terrorist connection more? It did for a while, but since the appeal that was made for the U.N. resolutions back last fall, you haven't heard much from the administration on this connection from.
IJAZ: You know, Brit, that's sort of a tough question to answer in one sense. But let me give you my opinion about that. That is, the Bush administration has their hands full trying to solve the problems on the ground in Iraq right now.
They did the best that they could to and try to lay everything out. They tried to make the case to the American people. I think they made a darn good case. And when they executed what they needed to and the evidence was there. The fact is that we found evidence after the war was over that this was going on.
And so for me, it's very clear what was happening. If the Democrats don't want to accept that, they're not going to win office next time if they keep this up, because the American people are too smart to let this go on forever.
HUME: Mansoor, thank you. Always a pleasure to have you.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now my question to you is...if there was an "official" document showing the connection, wouldn't you just dismiss it anyway? I'm sure the soldiers of the 3rdID pictured below would love to hear your explanation as to how there is no connection.
“Let's get down to brass tacks. How much for the ape?”
-Raoul Duke
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-Raoul Duke
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FireForEffect
- Posts: 112
- Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 1:37 am
- Location: Florida
I see, so allegations about Bush and Blair are considered facts in your world. Here is a link from all the way back in 2003 discussing the connection.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jh ... altop.html
Why even continue discussing the issue anyway? If you have made up your mind without ever doing any research save for things like daily mail, then what is the point? Honestly, I could care less if any of you agree with me or not. As was pointed out, this is a bunch of DJ's discussing politics which amounts to absolutley nothing. None of us can really do shit about any of this anyway regardless of what side you are on. Sit around and complain all you want about Bush or whatever else floats your boat but it won't matter in the grand scheme of things. I do my part, write my representatives who couldn't care less etc..but what can we really do? Nothing.
In 40 years Europe will be a muslim majority and the US will be Meximerica. That much will happen regardless who sits in the White House. If you guys have all the answers and are so omnipotent then why are you a DJ? Why not an inteligence analyst or a foreign affairs correspondant?
Lets agree to disagree and kill this fucking stupid thread...whatcha say?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jh ... altop.html
Why even continue discussing the issue anyway? If you have made up your mind without ever doing any research save for things like daily mail, then what is the point? Honestly, I could care less if any of you agree with me or not. As was pointed out, this is a bunch of DJ's discussing politics which amounts to absolutley nothing. None of us can really do shit about any of this anyway regardless of what side you are on. Sit around and complain all you want about Bush or whatever else floats your boat but it won't matter in the grand scheme of things. I do my part, write my representatives who couldn't care less etc..but what can we really do? Nothing.
In 40 years Europe will be a muslim majority and the US will be Meximerica. That much will happen regardless who sits in the White House. If you guys have all the answers and are so omnipotent then why are you a DJ? Why not an inteligence analyst or a foreign affairs correspondant?
Lets agree to disagree and kill this fucking stupid thread...whatcha say?
“Let's get down to brass tacks. How much for the ape?”
-Raoul Duke
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-Raoul Duke
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It isn't a question of how many assclowns you address, it's more a matter of the language you use. Give English a shot, and watch out for those sentence fragments!12micsn1 wrote:Thank GOD!! This very lucky intelligent secret master spy watch dog operative hasnt had good CENSOR-NUETERING or been brainwashed into a TRANSFORMER SMURFBOT (working soldier robot) by the Worldwide Neo-leftist Anti-Christian Pro Nazi-Communist-Socialist Fascist Pro-aborting Pornagraphy-inducing Violently Pro Homosexaul Mulit-culturalist Ethonocrat-Victimcrat Feminist Anti-American/Western Haters Globalist Movement. Which is circling the world with its subversive-seditious sewer rat brainwashing writing and rhetoric with its very slimey-sleazy bacteria infested filled greaseball heavy hidden hand agenda (the glove wearers). Only a few politically incorrect people outside the mainstream circle of fecal matter of destruction (SEWER SHIT) are well aware of having the knowledge-foresight to notice the real nightmare blantedly being expressed an carried out by this neo-dangerous freakishly mutating virus of this psychopathic-schoid global no-borders, language, culture-depopulation movement. How many ASSCLOWNS do i have to express this to before you you realize you are being subversively FUCKEDUP in the head?
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astronmr20
- Posts: 119
- Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:27 pm
- Location: Charlotte, NC, US
Fire For Effect,
Thanks for shutting these clowns down. This thread has no business on this part of the site, weather it was proclaimed as "O-T" or not. Reading these correlations of Bush to Hitler makes my blood boil, not just because you can relate ANY political machine to another, but because, if you really want to get down to it, the numerous and glaring connections between Hitler's propaganda and the islamo-fascist dogs that are recruiting their young men to die for the "cause" are too great to count. And for all of you who want to keep up with the "mass murder is mass murder" line, perhaps we shoudlen't have bombed berlin and allowed true evil to run free.
That's the problem: You people laugh when you hear folks like me name evil by name. It's that you humanists don't BELEIVE that "evil" even exists that's so dangerous and rediculous.
Yes; we should constantly question our leaders. But I want the address and phone number of the next POS that says the US crashed those planes. I'm F-ing serious.
I'm not defending Bush, but man..... every time I read a politics thread on a music board, I think my IQ gets taken down a few notches.
If the moderator has any sense, this thread needs to be moved. Now.
Thanks for shutting these clowns down. This thread has no business on this part of the site, weather it was proclaimed as "O-T" or not. Reading these correlations of Bush to Hitler makes my blood boil, not just because you can relate ANY political machine to another, but because, if you really want to get down to it, the numerous and glaring connections between Hitler's propaganda and the islamo-fascist dogs that are recruiting their young men to die for the "cause" are too great to count. And for all of you who want to keep up with the "mass murder is mass murder" line, perhaps we shoudlen't have bombed berlin and allowed true evil to run free.
That's the problem: You people laugh when you hear folks like me name evil by name. It's that you humanists don't BELEIVE that "evil" even exists that's so dangerous and rediculous.
Yes; we should constantly question our leaders. But I want the address and phone number of the next POS that says the US crashed those planes. I'm F-ing serious.
I'm not defending Bush, but man..... every time I read a politics thread on a music board, I think my IQ gets taken down a few notches.
If the moderator has any sense, this thread needs to be moved. Now.
Steve
Metric Halo 2882, Dual 1.8G5, Logic, Ableton, UAD-1, Volumaxes, Sta-level
Metric Halo 2882, Dual 1.8G5, Logic, Ableton, UAD-1, Volumaxes, Sta-level
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charvel-floyd
- Posts: 33
- Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 5:24 pm
By nature, musicians and artists are innovative, sensitive, and look for meaning in all things.
In terms of social, cultural, political (we had every artist threatening Armageddon and Bush still got elected...and now Harper) and economical, we're valued a tad above welfare recipients yet below baristas employed by Starbucks. In other words, besides adolescents, most folks don't really care about pop music. C'est la vie.
Based on the above two factors, it's not surprising to find Live users getting hard-ons for wild/innovative theories which implicitly attack the institutions, leaders, organizations that shun/ed their services, passions and contributions i.e. parent's, lovers, employers, guidance counselors , etc.
What bugs my ass is the disdain many artists use when addressing other artists who hold views contrary to their own. If you think about it, truly alternative views, from an artistic perspective, is right of center. Many of ya sound like cookie-cutter lefties quoting the same websites and reading the same Chomsky cheat sheets.
In terms of social, cultural, political (we had every artist threatening Armageddon and Bush still got elected...and now Harper) and economical, we're valued a tad above welfare recipients yet below baristas employed by Starbucks. In other words, besides adolescents, most folks don't really care about pop music. C'est la vie.
Based on the above two factors, it's not surprising to find Live users getting hard-ons for wild/innovative theories which implicitly attack the institutions, leaders, organizations that shun/ed their services, passions and contributions i.e. parent's, lovers, employers, guidance counselors , etc.
What bugs my ass is the disdain many artists use when addressing other artists who hold views contrary to their own. If you think about it, truly alternative views, from an artistic perspective, is right of center. Many of ya sound like cookie-cutter lefties quoting the same websites and reading the same Chomsky cheat sheets.
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FireForEffect
- Posts: 112
- Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 1:37 am
- Location: Florida