live reinvents modernism??

[Guest]

I was having a conversation with a friend who is studying art and we were talking about the links between art and music scenes, and modernism and post modernism

he was drawing a comparison between jazz and modernism - the uniting philosophy being about expression in a completely honest and raw way, straight from the soul through the instrument, wheras the post modernists were more about deconstruction - analysing what's already there, and sample based music is the ultimate in post-modernism because it breaks down what is already there and makes art from it. A continuing regurgitation of ideas - interpretation of other people's interpretations.....so you get things like a sample of an old record, being sampled in a record, then that record gets sampled etc.

In a way it's like sample based studio produced records have kind of hit a point where something really fresh is needed to inject into it for the first generation samplers of the next phase to start on again

The point of all this is that I think ableton live has enabled that next step by enabling musicians to properly play a PC like an instrument, which is going to completely re-invent electronic music by taking it out of the studio and into a live environment, so we can see Jazz like (not meaning music style) improvisation going on with PCs - insetead of saxophones guitars etc - even jazz has got stale, we can never have the kind of jazz the likes of kerouac wrote about again because it was a time and a place and we're now, in our time too far from the source to be authentic.

Just like all these crap guitar pop bands playing the same crap chords they've been playing for 50 years

What live has done is made it so easy to make new loops etc we don't need to bother ripping off old ones - you can do it as you go now, play it live on the keyboard.

Pop music's given up on itself - it completely openly admits that the only real pop left is manufactured pop idol crap, and the only people left writing songs are the R&B and Hip Hop or 3 chord guitar bands, and it's all sounding the same

bands like talking heads or pink floyd or the beatles, or any of the innovators just don't happen anymore because people don't aspire to join a band anymore - 1210s out sell guitars - but i think that's going to start changing, it is getting boring to just mix, we need to play instuments, and guitars have just about had every possible sound they can make squeezed out of them, it's time for new instruments - like a laptop and live.

now it's possible to play a laptop, and create truly deep and different sounds in real time, so maybe we can get to a point where the next Hendrix wont do his thing with a guitar, he'll use a laptop and controllers.

Maybe it's time to lay these primitive musical instruments to rest.



"Ableton LIve. For electronic music Kerouac would write about."

[Guest]

you just don't get it do you?

[Guest]

i agree with u in someways, but to call instruments primitive is a completley ignorant statement. just because mainstream music right now is not putting out anything fresh is not the fault of a guitar or a saxophone. if every instrument was "primitive" and useless, then where would u get the loops to sample? invent new instruments as well? there r only so many elements of instruments wind, percussive, stringed, and electronic(im probably missing a few here) and there is endless expression with what we already have. so much in fact that it seems to b taken for granted. in western music u only have 12 notes, and its how those notes r used that gives it meaning. its no different that the languages we speak. as technology progresses we will always have new mediums to express ourselves but that does not devalue what we already have, it adds to it. for one to not accept the old or not accept the new either is in fact musical suicide because its killing the music that has yet to b born. u can also say that the blues was overplayed by the 1960s but does that take away from what someone such as stevie ray vaughn did to blues in the 80s? any true artist would say no. and even to call certain music like blues or jazz stale is ignorant as well. take led zepelin, pink floyd, and black sabbath for example, they were just blues bands but they expanded on it, the concept remains though, even to this day. blues and jazz are in alot of ways concepts rather than genres of music. take those concepts and mix them with the concepts of dance and electronic. throw in the concept of punk as well. my point is music is limitless. its the people the limit everything with their primitive mindsets.

[Guest]

you just don't get it do you?

Elaborate?

[Benny]

you must come from some isolated Midwest American village to pretend popular music limits itself to hip hop, rnb and 3 chords rock bands... But I don't worry with that, I guess you and your art student friend after college are gonna backpack around europe, discover other types of music, fall in love with amsterdam and barcelona. You'll be able to impress your baby boomer teacher (who initiated you to philosophy and kerouac) You sound very "modern" with your "let's revolution arts" theory, read "era of emptyness" of Gilles Lipovetsky instead and forget about this old beatnik crap... I still respect the fact you "think", but you seem so manipulated by the philosophy of the baby boom generation

[Guest]

I'll shove my primative bass so far up your *&%, you'll be hiccuping at 50 Hz. Seriously though, just because the crap on top forty radio sucks does not mean that music these days is horrible. Quite to the contrary, I find there to be more exciting new music made today than ever, you just have to search it out, and its not on the top forty radio dial. Great bands with "primative" instruments breaking new ground--Then New Deal, Sound Tribe Sector 9 (three G4's with Live on stage at once!), The Slip, The Motet, Cinematic Orchestra, Jungle Funk, Black Jack Johnson, Om Trio, Siamese, Karsh Kale, Jonas Hellborg and Shawn Lane, the list goes on. Great Hybrid instruments/technology----Four Tet, Prefuse 73, Boards of Canada to name a few. Get your head out of your ass and start finding new music to listen to other than britney and ja rule, you might be surprised--there is more killer music out there now than ever, you just have to go find it. And don't for a second think that real instruments will ever go by the wayside--even those samples and loop cds you use were actually made by a real person on real instruments.

Ryan

[pharmakonMtl]

I was having a conversation with a friend who is studying art and we were talking about the links between art and music scenes, and modernism and post modernism

good times, from the sounds of it

he was drawing a comparison between jazz and modernism - the uniting philosophy being about expression in a completely honest and raw way, straight from the soul through the instrument, wheras the post modernists were more about deconstruction - analysing what's already there, and sample based music is the ultimate in post-modernism because it breaks down what is already there and makes art from it. A continuing regurgitation of ideas - interpretation of other people's interpretations.....so you get things like a sample of an old record, being sampled in a record, then that record gets sampled etc.

yes.

In a way it's like sample based studio produced records have kind of hit a point where something really fresh is needed to inject into it for the first generation samplers of the next phase to start on again

not sure about that.

The point of all this is that I think ableton live has enabled that next step by enabling musicians to properly play a PC like an instrument, which is going to completely re-invent electronic music by taking it out of the studio and into a live environment, so we can see Jazz like (not meaning music style) improvisation going on with PCs - insetead of saxophones guitars etc - even jazz has got stale, we can never have the kind of jazz the likes of kerouac wrote about again because it was a time and a place and we're now, in our time too far from the source to be authentic.

if jazz is an expression, it can never go stale. the people who think they are playing it are going stale.

Just like all these crap guitar pop bands playing the same crap chords they've been playing for 50 years

well you should expect to get flamed for this statement.

personally, i am first and foremost a guitar player, but truly i am simply a musician. i like anything that makes an interesting sound. every day i find a new way to express those 50-year old crappy cords. your own imagination is your limit, and the fallacy there is that it even Has a limit.

What live has done is made it so easy to make new loops etc we don't need to bother ripping off old ones - you can do it as you go now, play it live on the keyboard.

at what point did you find it necessary to use other people's loops? making your own is so much more satisfying and gratifying. of course Live makes this a bit easier, but you might be surprised with what can be accomplished with a simple 2-track wav editor, given the right inspiration and raw materials.

Pop music's given up on itself - it completely openly admits that the only real pop left is manufactured pop idol crap, and the only people left writing songs are the R&B and Hip Hop or 3 chord guitar bands, and it's all sounding the same

well, it might all sound the same to you, and i agree with you somewhat. but you have to remember that the record *industry* is in it for the money (otherwise it might be called the "musician's club" or something like that), and the artists that they choose to sponsor will reflect that for the most part. money carries no love.

bands like talking heads or pink floyd or the beatles, or any of the innovators

.. all pop artists..

just don't happen anymore because people don't aspire to join a band anymore - 1210s out sell guitars - but i think that's going to start changing, it is getting boring to just mix, we need to play instuments, and guitars have just about had every possible sound they can make squeezed out of them, it's time for new instruments - like a laptop and live.

i make some freaky-ass sounds with my guitar and some pedals and an amplifier or two.

i do, however, agree with you that software and hardware are the New Instruments. but that doesn't mean that the older ones should be discarded, or their importance downplayed.

now it's possible to play a laptop, and create truly deep and different sounds in real time, so maybe we can get to a point where the next Hendrix wont do his thing with a guitar, he'll use a laptop and controllers.

hendrix broke new ground because of his spirit, not his guitar. he can use whatever he wants.. if he is hendrix reincarnate, people will notice his power, regardless of the instrument he chooses.

Maybe it's time to lay these primitive musical instruments to rest.

primitive..? lol guitars aren't even 100 years old in their "electric" form. my grandmother is older than the Electric Guitar.




having said all that, the rest of you bravely anonymous guests should lay off the original poster, since he made a specific comment on POP music and how it all sounds the same, not fringe or underground music, where most of us realize the good stuff is hiding anyway. chill out, and maybe i'll send you each a bag of milk for your birthdays.

cheers,

-mokha ranp

[Guest]

right...

hold your horses, some of you... i think the person who started this thread was being 'tongue in cheek' when he/she said that it is time to 'lay these primitive instruments to rest'.

i'm sorry, but the point was we all need to be open to thinking critically about music and art in new ways, instead of hearing, talking about and regurgitating the same tired old shit.

the problem with this forum, and in life in general i suppose, is that folks tend to react defensively too quickly, and the original point is often lost in the shuffle. rather, think about it a bit.

that was a dope post.

[dpel]

agreed

[noisetonepause]

While I'd like to agree with you, please note that there *is* good music being made. I must say I think that Muse, for instance, are much more musical and exciting than the Beatles ever were or ever could be to me. Fuck what was innovation when me mum was young, fuck the past, I was born in 1984 and that's that.

That being said, for you anti-three chord rant, I have two words: Tom Paxton. Now, go do your homework.

I know I'm contradicting myself, so let me elaborate: the Beatles were a product of their time (or produced their time, either way, they're over), whereas Tom Paxton is human, very, very human and contains elements of something which isn't just music but, if I might quote Dead Prez, "Bigger Than Hiphop" - you know what I mean?

Or maybe it's just preference. No matter. These was my two pence was these, now go listen to good contemporary popular music - start out with Muse, Earthtone9, the Blueprint, Dead Prez, Sage Francis, the Streets, Dizzee Rascal, Nawal Al Zoughbi, Natascha Atlas, Talvin Singh and Basement Jaxx: music is alive and well, parts of it are just buried under top 40 dirt...

Health, Wealth and Happiness, mate.

-Paws

[dpel]

agreed

[Guest]

Somehow some people think that the future of music is only computers. I just think it is part of it and a great help to creating new things that weren't possible before with hardware based effects or samplers.

People like to play instruments and they will for a long time. I sure do like to play drums and I'll never stop. It's quite physical and there's nothing quite like laying down a solid groove and bouncing on it.

[Guest]

it is not being defensive to correct an indivual who says the instruments are primitive. also you cannot compare the beatles to muse, it doesnt make any sense. the beatles were more than just music and thats coming from someone born 8 years after they broke up not an old hippie. when it comes down to it, it doesnt matter what u play, but how you express your spirit. if you can play guitar like steve vai or ynwie malmsteen technically but you dont have anything to express you might as well give up. its all about the human soul and nothing else. the human voice is the oldest instrument and the day that becomes primitive is the day all music dies.

[paradiddle]

Well said! It's all about expression. The means don't matter. It's what you have to say that counts. If ya can touch someone with an ableton live jam or just a funk beat or just somebody singing, then mission accomplished.



The more from the heart, the better.

[sixela]

right...

hold your horses, some of you... i think the person who started this thread was being 'tongue in cheek' when he/she said that it is time to 'lay these primitive instruments to rest'.


spot on....

i'm sorry, but the point was we all need to be open to thinking critically about music and art in new ways, instead of hearing, talking about and regurgitating the same tired old shit.

yep

the problem with this forum, and in life in general i suppose, is that folks tend to react defensively too quickly, and the original point is often lost in the shuffle. rather, think about it a bit.

that was a dope post.

really what I was meaning when starting the thread was, far from slating real instruments, as ultimately it's guitar i've been nearly playing for nearly 20 years, but the sad shame that people don't aspire to get in real inpirational pop bands like those I mentioned - because 1210s out sell guitars, so it's not in the forefront any more so we don't get good pop music, where we used to

and the point about jazz was that we don't get the stuff kerouac wrote about for similar reasons - the problem with having to go searchiung for the innovative stuff is there's no united front on 'good music' instead we have this enourmously broad so badly pigeon holed music industry that it's a wonder it holds together -

far from really meaning real instruments are the problem, I think it's more that we've been so saturated by music done with the same instrumentation that it's getting to be rare that people do anything new with it

The point was that I'm excited to have a new instrument that can be played live, and maybe we'll see a new buzz from live music, but with new, uniquely 21st century sounds

as for the baby boomer comment - I'd much rather be influenced by the baby boomers than corporate crap like mcDonalds and Coca-cola, which seems to be about the only influences that seem to exist these days - just remember the beatles were baby boomers.

What ever sells is art these days because people have given up on pop and accepted the cynical reality that it's all manufactured - rather than trying to break it by being GOOD innovative pop bands, rather than really talented people sitting in studios on their own writing club music and not bothering withlyrics or vocals or INSTRUMENTS