You don't need Pro Tools Dude!

D K · Post by **D K** » Sun Jun 18, 2006 8:19 pm

who gives a fuck?
if it sounds good, it is good.
i've used pro tools, live, logic, and tape...
just like many people have.
these folks you call snobs just sound like beginners to me...
pros get the job done with the tools at hand.

subbasshead · Post by **subbasshead** » Sun Jun 18, 2006 8:42 pm

those people you call snobs are probably just being overtly defensive
ie attack as the best form of defense.... why?
because they HAVE sunk large sums of money into Digidesign
& are rapidly seeing their 'advantages' being eroded by native systems...
I've owned a TDM system & I'll never own another one
I use a native PT system every day & there are plenty of reasons for that,
but mainly because protools is a de facto standard in post thru longevity
if ableton had started business back when digidesign had
i think things would be way different....
but its best to judge based on the work/art produced
rather than the means used to produce it...
i wouldnt lose any sleep over the insecure rantings of such people

detroitechno · Post by **detroitechno** » Sun Jun 18, 2006 9:44 pm

I don't know why I'm even replying to this, but whatever...

Protools, like live... is a tool. It has it's specific purpose, which you obviously don't see. No duh that live is better than PT for writing 'trax'. Anyone with a brain can figure that out. But PT isn't designed for writing tracks, it's developed after multitrack editing/mixing/recording etc....

You cutting up protools is like a woodworker calling a solding iron a peice of shit. Just cause the wood worker doesn't solder things, doesn't mean he should diss the tool used for that.

Go record a band, with 20 microphones, inside live, and start editing drums, on a multitrack level... then tell me how superior live is to PT.

good luck

shapshankly · Post by **shapshankly** » Sun Jun 18, 2006 9:46 pm

there is no way that i would even consider tracking and mixing a band in ableton.

so, so many reasons why pro tools is better at that (as are cubase, nuendo, logic, sonar, digital performer........)

however, i would never write the music i write in pro tools.

i use ableton creatively, i use a more typical DAW system to record bands etc. as they are better at that. end of.

eyeknow · Post by **eyeknow** » Sun Jun 18, 2006 9:47 pm

Uh oh..........here come the flame-o-rama reply.........(as I duck)

There actually are differences in sound in daw's, just like cords/cables, preamps/pickups.......etc.

It's shitty that there is no way I can think of to prove that. I wish I could. The only way to know is to do comprehensive side by sides and that is not practical for most people.

Plus, it wastes time........

We really should be making music instead! (yes, I am addressing myself)

stinky · Post by **stinky** » Sun Jun 18, 2006 10:17 pm

anybody successfully use multiple meters in one track within Ableton alone....? Live is not a complete DAW (yet?), and besides just metering, there are so many standard daw features that are just plain missing in Live. This whole thread is just a troll to PT users.. it could easily have been the same troll for Cubase, Logic, DP, Sonic, etc, etc... but the troll just does not stand up. The poster is definitely not understanding of what a real daw is supposed to be. Don't forget, Live wasn't intended to be a DAW, and there are alot of users out there (including myself) that don't think it should be made into one.. performance issues being one of the main reasons.

quandry · Post by **quandry** » Sun Jun 18, 2006 10:34 pm

shapshankly wrote:there is no way that i would even consider tracking and mixing a band in ableton.

so, so many reasons why pro tools is better at that (as are cubase, nuendo, logic, sonar, digital performer........)

however, i would never write the music i write in pro tools.

i use ableton creatively, i use a more typical DAW system to record bands etc. as they are better at that. end of.

detroitechno wrote: Go record a band, with 20 microphones, inside live, and start editing drums, on a multitrack level... then tell me how superior live is to PT.

good luck

Not trying to flame here at all, but I have tracked bands (16 tracks of 24/48 simultaneously) in Live. Then added overdubs, used some Live effects and some Waves plugins, then mixed and "mastered" in Live. I find the results satisfactory and the process intuitive and streamlined. I admit I've never used PT much, played with it only a bit and seen things done in it. In all honesty, why is it so much better for full band tracking? Or is it better for editing? If it can show multiple automation lines at once like Sonar I can see that as one advantage. But in terms of editing drums as detroitechno mentioned--what are the distinct advantages? If you don't record to a click (which is the way my bands do it by choice), and you have a late snare hit, don't you still have to split the snare track just before and after the hit in PT just like in Live and then move it? Sorry for my ignorance of PT, I'm just trying to understand your comments better. Anyhow, fortunately the drummers I play with play time pretty well, and I haven't had to do tedious edits--here's some band tracks that were all tracked and mixed in Live, call me crazy:

http://www.ryan-hughes.net/RuleOfThumpFrameset.htm

Angstrom · Post by **Angstrom** » Sun Jun 18, 2006 10:41 pm

there are things that need adding to Live to make it compete as a DAW with the big 3 (4?)

but they shouldn't be too hard to put in, it's just whether ableton actually decides to do it. Where do their priorities lie?

A DAW is meant to be one thing, A.L. is meant to be 3 (at least)

njh · Post by **njh** » Sun Jun 18, 2006 10:52 pm

i worked at guitar center for about a month (this was actually last month )
before working there i did not want pro tools, i didnt think i would ever care to want it. after messing wth the digi 002 console i realised that pro tools would work out great for me. i know you can record and edit audio in many programs but pro tools is in every studio, wich would make it alot easier on me if im halfway through a project and feel i need outside help.
also it seems like im limiting myself by not knowing pro tools software..
pro tools has been around since i can remember people using computers to track audio. i doubt it is going anywhere anytime soon.
i know all of this sounds noobish but i still consider myself to be a noob.
from the looks of it most people on here are still noobs...even ableton live falls under noob.

stinky · Post by **stinky** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 1:21 am

Not trying to flame here at all, but I have tracked bands (16 tracks of 24/48 simultaneously) in Live. Then added overdubs, used some Live effects and some Waves plugins, then mixed and "mastered" in Live. I find the results satisfactory and the process intuitive and streamlined. I admit I've never used PT much, played with it only a bit and seen things done in it. In all honesty, why is it so much better for full band tracking? Or is it better for editing? If it can show multiple automation lines at once like Sonar I can see that as one advantage. But in terms of editing drums as detroitechno mentioned--what are the distinct advantages? If you don't record to a click (which is the way my bands do it by choice), and you have a late snare hit, don't you still have to split the snare track just before and after the hit in PT just like in Live and then move it? Sorry for my ignorance of PT, I'm just trying to understand your comments better. Anyhow, fortunately the drummers I play with play time pretty well, and I haven't had to do tedious edits--here's some band tracks that were all tracked and mixed in Live, call me crazy:

Yep, there are tons of reasons that make PT better for recording live bands, for editing audio, and mastering.... i'll cover a few...

For recording Bands:

Metering
Regions, Markers, Groups
Handling Overdubs
Sending Click w/mapped meter changes
Multiple Takes (holy shit, recording a band without being able to switch to different takes on the fly.. uh, no brainer)
Zero Latency Monitoring

For editing audio:

Remove silence (huge plus, easy as hell and really intuitive)
Advanced fading/crossfading capabilities
Regions, Markers, Groups
Beat Detective (and groove templating, you can do something similar with copying warps, but it's a hack and doesn't always generate the intended result)
Takes (again)
Redraw Waveform Data
Writing Automation and Resolution 10x better

Video Production stuff:

Surround Sound
Quicktime DV audio editing
Tight integration with Avid (Both are industry standards, so if you have it at home, you can walk into any A/V studio and feel comfortable)
SMPTE (in fact, ableton doesn't generate or use time code at all, so you have to use a seperate program for that anyways, what a bitch)

For Mastering:

Metering (Again)
Regions, Markers, Groups (Again)
Surround Sound (Again)
Submixing Bus (this is obviously debateable, but noone has yet proved to me otherwise, and i can hear it. Submixing in ableton just sounds thinner.)
Waves works better in PT (Sidechaining actually works right)

In General:

Templating is better
Hardware routing and I/O is more advanced, and has to do with hardware integration (kinda like why people like Macs, because the hard/software is tightly integrated)
Regions, Markers, Groups (Again) (you don't realize what a big plus is this in terms of organization until you've used it)
Better Harddrive Allocation (full use of multiple drives)
Timebase rulers
Playhead scrubbing (this feature was removed from Live, if i'm not mistaken)

Oh yeah, you can use multiple monitor with PT (that's a big one, especially when you're recording a band, but it helps in any area.. and this, you can't do, in Live)

As for Audio/midi... i found there's not much difference in how either one does audio routing, except the PT has better sending capabilities for audio (post/pre).. but midi routing is 10x better in Live, hands down. However, PT still has alot of midi features that Live doesn't, and probably won't have. PT has built in midi maps for alot of the major controllers (over 30 manufacturers).. ableton doesn't have this.. I do admit that midi mapping in Ableton is better overall, however. Also, Midi Quantization is better implemented and finer in terms of resolution. Don't forget Sysex is implemented in PT, which has been a problem for alot of you here on the forum.

But, continuing to compare the 2 is definitely comparing apples to oranges. There are some things that the other just can't do. Basicly, PT is not the best creative tool for a musician... it's better for recording, mixing, and mastering (and video). The fact that it's midi routing/mapping sux and vst capabilities built-in are nil.. that says alot about that about using it as a music creation tool. But, frankly, it spanks ableton for recording.

Additionally, i could go on forever about the features implemented in PT that are just lacking in Ableton, because Live is not a full functioning DAW, and to be quite honest, i don't think it will compete with PT, ever, in that respect.

I do have a proposition for everyone to consider, though. And, i'm probably going to get flamed for this, but there's a very reasonable explanation for what i'm about to say. You can quote me on this:

"I think it's very possible that Ableton will have 'A division of Avid' sticker on it's logo sometime in the future."

There i said it, let the flaming begin. Lemme explain why i think this way. Avid owns Digidesign, and M-Audio. Avid is THE standard in video broadcasting production. Digidesign is THE standard in audio broadcasting/recording production. M-Audio is a major player in the hardware controller, a/d market for consumers, and professionals. I know alot of you think m-audio sucks, but not everyone thinks that way. They make alot of decent gear. M-Audio is also partnered with Ableton, and does Ableton's tech support. It's really pretty simple and it makes sense for them to buy out Ableton. Whether it will happen or not, i don't know, but i wouldn't be surprised, and they would do it before someone else did, that's for sure (because of the partnerships already in place).

So, before you go dissing PT, just think that Ableton and Digidesign may be family very soon.

Also, I think that alot of you guys dissing PT haven't really had the experience or patience to fully understand the depths of the program. Do you think Live's popularity is down to how easy it is to use? Of course, but that doesn't mean it's better. That's very naive to even think. PT's complexity is sometimes it's downfall, but it's complex for a reason, and the people that tend to use are professionals that tend to know more about recording in general. That's a general statement, and it's not meant as a flame. If you've got the experience to be using PT as a power user, then you general know more than the average live user. I know it's a blanket statement, but there's alot of truth to it. PT users are more apt to come from real-world studio environments than Live users. Sorry quandry, it's true.

MR Coogs · Post by **MR Coogs** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 2:42 am

PT is a very simple program actually. It excels at editing recorded audio. Adjusting length etc. Sessions work.

Live can do the same stuff, but it's a bit more difficult to accomplish some of the things PT does easily.

eyeknow · Post by **eyeknow** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 3:14 am

I LOVE PTools!

I LOVE live!

Live is so kick ass for writing/composing.......it's just the SHIT! More fun than a barrel of monkeys!

Pt (or now mostly logic for me) is where the "editing" mostly comes in.

Man, with the exception of the original poster.......I have seen some terrific and informative posts!

subbasshead · Post by **subbasshead** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 5:48 am

PT is a very simple program actually.

this is true, only in the same way that Photoshop is a simple program...
its true depth & power requires a lot of experience
try it for ten minutes & you might well think its simple,
because in effect you are only doing simple things....
but use it for ten years & you will still find new ways of using it

Live can do the same stuff

just be clear, Live can do some of the same stuff, not all
they are very different porgrams with evry different approaches
No one said you only had to use one, use what works best for the project....

ps you can use VST plugs in PT via Audio Ease VST Wrapper

pps OMG Digidesign/Avid owning Ableton????
I'm not gonna flame you but that is one of the most hideous things
I have heard in a long time...
i'm sure its written in some religious book somewhere, but that
will be the beginning of the end....

SubFunk · Post by **SubFunk** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 11:41 am

detroit techno wrote:

I don't know why I'm even replying to this, but whatever...

Protools, like live... is a tool. It has it's specific purpose, which you obviously don't see. No duh that live is better than PT for writing 'trax'. Anyone with a brain can figure that out. But PT isn't designed for writing tracks, it's developed after multitrack editing/mixing/recording etc....

You cutting up protools is like a woodworker calling a solding iron a peice of shit. Just cause the wood worker doesn't solder things, doesn't mean he should diss the tool used for that.

Go record a band, with 20 microphones, inside live, and start editing drums, on a multitrack level... then tell me how superior live is to PT.

good luck Laughing

LOL, yeah man spot on! i agree.

SubFunk · Post by **SubFunk** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 11:47 am

MR. Coogs wrote:

PT is a very simple program actually. It excels at editing recorded audio. Adjusting length etc. Sessions work.

Live can do the same stuff, but it's a bit more difficult to accomplish some of the things PT does easily.

this unfortenuately does not apply anymore when you charge for 1 studio / engineering hour a seroius amount of money.

every tool as many times said has it's purpose, other then making mostly (NOT only but mostly) programmed / sequenced / sampled music. there are other programms (tools) which are better suited for the job. that's all, no one says you can't make great or even record great music with live, of course you can, but i want to see you as mentioned recording and editing a 20mic recording for an serious hour or day rate with live. good luck!