MIDI delay recording

[Chris J]

weird, I posted this earlier on and it disappeared since. So there IS a moderator after all?

This bug was on L5 and was cured after many arguments but it's back :
Record 2 midi tracks, one with monitor AUTO and one with monitor OFF.
compare:
notes are not at the same place and only the OFF one is what you actually played.

Please sort this out, thx

[Chris J]

bumping before it disappears in the amount of posts.

This is serious shit that should be fixed

[Amaury]

Hi Chris,

I far as I understand, monitoring an incoming MIDI signal induces latency as does monitoring an audio signal. There is no other way around, since some data has to be calculated, and a Delay compensation feature can't know in advance what wil happen next.

Now, the amount of latency, in your case, must depend on:

-the audio buffer size (if you play an instrument)
-the plugin buffer size
-the tyoe and amount of plugins that you use in your MIDI track and/or the Master track
-your MIDI interface
-if either the Delay Compensation is ON or OFF.

We are not aware of a change between Live 5 and 6 (are you using 6.0.1), but if there is, we're happy to reproduce the issue with a detailed description of your Preferences and setup, as well as a step by step of the way you are doing things.

Regards,
Amaury

[Chris J]

Hi Amaury,
you're using the same arguments as were originally used for L5 but eventually it got fixed, so check back with your programmers and on this forum.

I'm not going to argue for ages like I did in the past, before you(ableton) eventually understood what was wrong and fixed it.

Do the test without any plugins, auto and off don't record the same way.
and yes L5 records midi properly, L6 doesn't

Anyway, whatever your reasons are Live should record or at least play back what you play like you played it and not shift the notes ahead making what you play sound like you can't play, period.

the compensation has to come after the recording, not when you record by shifting notes ahead. Otherwise that means the MIDI track you record is DEPENDANT on the instrument plugin you're going to use !!!
That doesn't make sense. You should be able to decide to send your midi track to another instrument if you so decide.

[Chris J]

since some data has to be calculated, and a Delay compensation feature can't know in advance what wil happen next.

what data has to be calculated ? you play a note at a certain time , say bar 2, any sequencer on the market puts the note on bar 2, but Live would have to put it on 1.4.4 because some data has to be calculated ??? come on... please think !
the delay compensation delays the audio output so that everything plays in sync. it doesn't shift the notes on your midi track while they're being recorded (or at least shouldn't.)

[Amaury]

since some data has to be calculated, and a Delay compensation feature can't know in advance what wil happen next.

what data has to be calculated ? you play a note at a certain time , say bar 2, any sequencer on the market puts the note on bar 2, but Live would have to put it on 1.4.4 because some data has to be calculated ??? come on... please think !
the delay compensation delays the audio output so that everything plays in sync. it doesn't shift the notes on your midi track while they're being recorded (or at least shouldn't.)

Hi,

Let me check that, but before I'll explain what I mean: If you play a soft synth and monitor it, and that device induces latency, then you'll have to play 'before the beat', so you hear the sound 'on the beat', thus, the recorded notes would be recorded 'before the beat'

I'm not saying that your problem is not real, I have to check, I was simply trying to trouble shoot.

Regards,
Amaury

[tylenol]

yes L5 records midi properly, L6 doesn't

I checked this with operator, and there was about a 20ms discrepancy for both 5.2.1 and 6.0.1. The non-monitored track was the early one, i.e. it is the "wrong" one (because live isn't calculating the delay operator would induce if it were playing -- if anything this is the weird behavior, because when you actually play this track, it does compensate for operator and the track sounds early).

[John Daminato]

I have had a similar problem and then realized the global quantization kept turning it self on every project. NOt sure if this applies. YOu did say its pushing all the notes up so maybe.

Another problem I couldnt understand was. I turn the individual track delay all the way up (100miliseconds) I could never hear the difference. So I recorded on loop and basically resampled my midi track but delayed one to the max. The notes kept landing in the exact same location as the originals that I resampled???.

[Chris J]

Hi,

Let me check that, but before I'll explain what I mean: If you play a soft synth and monitor it, and that device induces latency, then you'll have to play 'before the beat', so you hear the sound 'on the beat', thus, the recorded notes would be recorded 'before the beat'

Hi,
I understand what you mean BUT :

1) read again and do the test:
2 tracks recorded AT THE SAME TIME : the latency you're refering to would be on both tracks but the negative delay is only on the track set to AUTO, the one set to OFF is being recorded properly, so your argument doesn't stand.

2) If I play before the beat due to the latency induced by the soft synth, when playing back it should be what I played, simple as that. but it's not.

[dr.wackler]

Wow, I just checked this, and it is real.
I never noticed before, but now I know why on some occasions I was doubting my ability to play in 'in time' properly...


-- Record Quantization OFF (otherwise you wouln't notice in most cases); recorded on both tracks (one with monitoring AUTO, one with monitoring OFF) at the same time, in Session view.

-- No MIDI interface connected; played via Live's Computer MIDI Keyboard.
---> So MIDI latency is not the point.

-- Used an empty Live Set with just two MIDI tracks with no synth plugin (neither effect plugin) at all in the tracks.
---> So Delay Compensation for any plugin is not the point.

-- Tried with Delay Compensation ON and OFF, just to double check.
---> No difference.


I've saved that test Live Set and could send it to you, in case you can't reproduce.

[Chris J]

Wow, I just checked this, and it is real.
I never noticed before, but now I know why on some occasions I was doubting my ability to play in 'in time' properly...


-- Record Quantization OFF (otherwise you wouln't notice in most cases); recorded on both tracks (one with monitoring AUTO, one with monitoring OFF) at the same time, in Session view.

-- No MIDI interface connected; played via Live's Computer MIDI Keyboard.
---> So MIDI latency is not the point.

-- Used an empty Live Set with just two MIDI tracks with no synth plugin (neither effect plugin) at all in the tracks.
---> So Delay Compensation for any plugin is not the point.

-- Tried with Delay Compensation ON and OFF, just to double check.
---> No difference.


I've saved that test Live Set and could send it to you, in case you can't reproduce.

I think the worse about this is that we've been through this at LENGTH when L5 came out, and we're back to quare one with the same ready-made answers from Ableton. It was only a year ago, can't anybody at Ableton remember that ?

[hoffman2k]

weird, I posted this earlier on and it disappeared since. So there IS a moderator after all?

A bit paranoid are we?
Search for "latency" posted by chris J in the bugs forum = http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic. ... 56&start=0

[Chris J]

weird, I posted this earlier on and it disappeared since. So there IS a moderator after all?

A bit paranoid are we?
Search for "latency" posted by chris J in the bugs forum = http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic. ... 56&start=0

ah cool you found the original thread from last year !!!

but personally I meant the one I posted this wednesday 22Nov 2006

[Hepha Luemp]

but personally I meant the one I posted this wednesday 22Nov 2006

So did you post that with monitor set to "off" or to "auto" ?

If it was "auto", it might appear tomorrow, I think.



Hepha Luemp

[Chris J]

but personally I meant the one I posted this wednesday 22Nov 2006

So did you post that with monitor set to "off" or to "auto" ?

If it was "auto", it might appear tomorrow, I think.



Hepha Luemp

although with Auto, it should have appeared one day before I posted, tuesday.