zero crossing tip

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beigenoise
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 1:36 am
Location: UK

zero crossing tip

Post by beigenoise » Sat Mar 13, 2004 1:46 am

bit boring this one, but has been annoying me for a while.
When using the volume envelope on a clip, especially when going from 100% to 0 (for rhythmic muting effects etc.. prefuse 73 styleee) i noticed glitches and clicks caused by eidts being in time, but not at a zero crossing in the audio files. So the silence is in time, but you are adding extra clicks which can be distracting / non musical etc....
if this bugs you too just figure out which warp marker you are "cutting" at , double click on it to lock it and move it to the nearest zero crossing. This move will be tiny and shouldn't affect your warping....
(of course you can always lock the markers before and after to avoid any changes)
that made me feel so much better when i figured it out... maybe you guys already figured it or perhaps not... but thanks for listening...
perhaps a suggestion for the wonderful peeps at ableton to have an option to snap to nearest zero crossing for "mute" type effects???
:)

Guest

Post by Guest » Sat Mar 13, 2004 4:54 am

Excellent idea mate!

ethios4
Posts: 5377
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 6:28 am

nice...

Post by ethios4 » Tue Mar 30, 2004 6:53 am

Good call on that one! i had just noticed the clicking myself a few days ago. i found out that you don't have to adjust warp markers if you use the pencil tool, with the grid-snapper turned off and Quantize set to "None". You can just draw the volume to exactly where you want it. But it's hard to find the zero crossing sometimes with no zero-line defined on the waveform...

guest (brittney sparse)

Post by guest (brittney sparse) » Wed Apr 14, 2004 2:21 pm

Um, what's a zero crossing? :oops:

ethios4
Posts: 5377
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 6:28 am

zero crossing...

Post by ethios4 » Wed Apr 14, 2004 8:00 pm

The zero-crossing isn't marked in Live, so it might be a bit difficult to explain, but most audio programs show the zero-crossing. The zero-crossing is a horizontal line across a waveform that shows where zero db is on the waveform. This also represents where the speaker is at it's rest position as it vibrates back and forth. The farther the signal is from zero the further the speaker is from it's rest position. This also corresponds to how intense, or "loud", the signal is...although "loudness" is a much more complex issue than just how far the speaker is from center...
The reason its important to cut audio at the zero crossing is that if you don't, the signal has to jump from wherever it was, to zero, or some other value, instantly, which is not possible. So you hear a "pop" when that happens. This also accounts for glitching in audio, from digital clipping or bad rendering or whatever. When a digital signal clips, the signal information has gone outside the boundaries of what can be recorded, so a maximum or minimum signal value is recorded instead...meaning that wherever the signal was, it jumps to this new value, causing a "pop" or crazy distortion sound if the corruption goes on for very long.
This also ties in to "DC Offset" which is when the zero-line of an audio file doesn't correspond to the actual zero-line for digital audio. This can happen through the course of processing a sound or a number of other ways. If the DC Offset is not corrected, the sound can be fatiguing and even damage speakers, because the speakers and eardrums are not returning to their rest position but to some offset position. Fortunately most audio programs (SoundForge, Cubase, ProTools, etc..) can quickly and easily correct DC Offset across an entire audio file. There are also VST's that can accomplish this on the fly.
Well, that's my understanding of this issue at least. Hope it's of some help :)

Guest

Re: zero crossing...

Post by Guest » Wed Apr 14, 2004 10:20 pm

ethios4 wrote:The zero-crossing isn't marked in Live, so it might be a bit difficult to explain, but most audio programs show the zero-crossing. The zero-crossing is a horizontal line across a waveform that shows where zero db is on the waveform. This also represents where the speaker is at it's rest position as it vibrates back and forth. The farther the signal is from zero the further the speaker is from it's rest position. This also corresponds to how intense, or "loud", the signal is...although "loudness" is a much more complex issue than just how far the speaker is from center...
The reason its important to cut audio at the zero crossing is that if you don't, the signal has to jump from wherever it was, to zero, or some other value, instantly, which is not possible. So you hear a "pop" when that happens. This also accounts for glitching in audio, from digital clipping or bad rendering or whatever. When a digital signal clips, the signal information has gone outside the boundaries of what can be recorded, so a maximum or minimum signal value is recorded instead...meaning that wherever the signal was, it jumps to this new value, causing a "pop" or crazy distortion sound if the corruption goes on for very long.
This also ties in to "DC Offset" which is when the zero-line of an audio file doesn't correspond to the actual zero-line for digital audio. This can happen through the course of processing a sound or a number of other ways. If the DC Offset is not corrected, the sound can be fatiguing and even damage speakers, because the speakers and eardrums are not returning to their rest position but to some offset position. Fortunately most audio programs (SoundForge, Cubase, ProTools, etc..) can quickly and easily correct DC Offset across an entire audio file. There are also VST's that can accomplish this on the fly.
Well, that's my understanding of this issue at least. Hope it's of some help :)
nice one for that mate, this is why I like the ableton forum. :wink:

Pitch Black
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Post by Pitch Black » Thu Apr 15, 2004 1:35 am

Here's my method for getting around this. Its sounds longer to describe in print than to do.

1 Draw in volume gating envelopes with the pencil tool.

2 Where a click or pop is heard. zoom in on the offending envelope corner

3 Unclick the pencil tool, this will show the breakpoints of the envelope you just drew

4 Move the top or bottom breakpoint a little to the left or right, resulting in a very fast but not instant attack/release. This usually fixes the problem.

When you zoom in, you can also see any bits of waveform that have overlapped or been clipped by the envelope and adjust accordingly.

Again, quicker to do than describe.

hope this helps...
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Porpy
Posts: 183
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Post by Porpy » Fri Apr 16, 2004 12:45 am

Yeah, what PitchBlack is describing is correct. Hopefully Ableton at some point will incorporate an envelope smoothing option so these glitches will be a thing of the past.

When you are trying to edit a whole bund of varying envelopes and evenlope smoother will be a real time saver.

regards

p

gaspode
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Smooth

Post by gaspode » Fri Apr 16, 2004 2:35 am

Yeah, it's kind of silly that we get the option for fade in/out at the start and end of the loop, but not on envelopes...

I also agree it can be a pain to find a good zero point sometimes... especially if you are working on a stereo file. A little bit of gating can go a *long* way...

montrealbreaks
Posts: 995
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 11:38 pm
Location: Montreal Canada

Zero crossing and stereo phase

Post by montrealbreaks » Fri Apr 16, 2004 3:32 pm

gaspode wrote:Yeah, it's kind of silly that we get the option for fade in/out at the start and end of the loop, but not on envelopes...

I also agree it can be a pain to find a good zero point sometimes... especially if you are working on a stereo file. A little bit of gating can go a *long* way...
This is a personal piff of mine.

I Love wide stereo imaging. Too much perhaps. However, phasers and such are good for this, but make finding a zero crossing in a stereo file difficult.

My tip:

If you apply effects integrally to the loops and export them with some "wet"ness, apply phasing late in the loop creation process. Cut your loop points prior to phasing. Then, with a handy program like LIVE 3 (others will work too) with envelopes for effects, automate the ammount of phasing. Use steep slopes to introduce the phaseing immediately after the front loop point and kill the phasing immediately before the last loop point. A couple of milliseconds should do it, and still remain unnoticable. That way, your loop point won't have wacky zero crossing issues on one of the stereo channels.

L8er
Montrealbreaks

I have changed my username; Now posting as:


M. Bréqs

beigenoise
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 1:36 am
Location: UK

zeroes and ones

Post by beigenoise » Fri Apr 16, 2004 9:59 pm

just to say thanks for all the replies and stuff. Hopefully the big ableton brother will grant us our wish soon.... snap to zero anyone... it's really not too hard...
anyways try this (shameless plug for shameful music)

www.loathing.tv

try the link thing in the top right corner....
all done Live in live using uc33e... no edits (no shame!)

beigenoise
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 1:36 am
Location: UK

sorry try this..

Post by beigenoise » Fri Apr 16, 2004 10:02 pm

rubbish, yet genius i reckon


http://www.loathing.tv/tunes/likeimtoxic.mp3

all done in live live with uc33e... enjoy

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