Live 4.0.1 is buggy & crashes

Verne Andru · Post by **Verne Andru** » Sat Jul 24, 2004 7:51 pm

I really hate to rain on Ableton's parade, but the "release" of Live is not ready for prime-time.

I have reported [on at least 3 separate occasions] since the first beta that when you try to display the properties dialog of some very common VSTi's - something you absolutely need to do to use the VSTi's features - Live starts behaving erratically and crashes forcing you to reboot your computer. This bug has to do with an erratic pointer [where there’s one there’s usually several] that undermines Live, the ReWire and Audio subsystems on your computer.

I’ve been using Live since version 1 on almost a daily basis. I absolutely love it and have been pressing for a long time for the inclusion of MIDI support. I’ve been anxiously awaiting this release and am excited about the added features and functions it provides.

But making a product release announcement at Summer NAMM [happening right now] is absolutely no excuse to releasing software that you know is buggy. This has caused Steinberg a huge amount of customer ill will and is a business model I was glad Ableton didn’t follow. Guess times have changed.

I’m hugely disappointed and don’t recommend anyone buy Live 4.0.1 until the known bugs have been fixed.

painseeker · Post by **painseeker** » Sat Jul 24, 2004 8:09 pm

I just upgraded. Live 4 has crashed 3 times within an hour. Well freeze is more accurate. If i try to move a channel to a different position in the session view, Live freezes, and I have to reboot. If i try to copy a part in the arrange window, Live freezes - again I have to reboot.

I think that Ableton should have waited, instead of releasing "beta" software. And why is the first release called 4.01? Already made changes to version 4.0?

stay groovy
Thomas Schreiber
Aarhus N, Denmark

Vercengetorex · Post by **Vercengetorex** » Sat Jul 24, 2004 9:04 pm

You are buggy, and you crash.

*Kidding*

Seriously though, what VST's have been doing this?
And what has abletons response been to your bug reports?

I have not had a crash since Beta 9...

Verne Andru · Post by **Verne Andru** » Sat Jul 24, 2004 10:06 pm

It crashes with Edirol's [Rolands] Virtual Sound Canvas and SuperWave. I can understand if they can't test it with VSC, but SuperWave is free and this bug is very easy to reproduce.

I get a release, toss in the VSTi, it crashes, I report the bug and Albeton responds by not responding.

I'm sure if you only use Abletons' plugs it works fine - but that defeats the whole purpose of VST support in the first place.

It's like buying a car with a faulty transmission - you can get it off the lot, but that's about it.

Buyer beware.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Jul 24, 2004 10:14 pm

sorry to hear that but its not a deal breaker for me. The only app I have that doesn't occasionally crash is Reason. Why? Because its a CLOSED system.

This is just par for the course IMHO.

Verne Andru · Post by **Verne Andru** » Sat Jul 24, 2004 10:14 pm

As Bernd admits in the Beta forum:

"Finally, there are still pending things, that were and are discussed here and some at least potential bugs are out there."

What I'm trying to say is these are not "potential" bugs - but real, live, system crashing bugs that they have known about since the start of the beta program and have done nothing about. If these were things that didn't show up or they were not aware of, that's one thing. But this is a blatant example of a software company selling a product they know and acknowledge is defective.

the8bitdeity · Post by **the8bitdeity** » Sat Jul 24, 2004 10:43 pm

Sometimes fault lies in the VSTi and not the plug-in. The VST standard is shoddily maintained, and you see a lot of plugins that violate coding standards. I'm not saying this IS the case, but it MIGHT be the case.

Post by **Bernd** » Sat Jul 24, 2004 11:15 pm

Hi Verne Andru,

on monday I will take a look at it. You described it pretty well so I am confident that we will find it. Our plug-in interface developer left already a week ago for vacation. It must have been overssen while handing over. Sorry for the inconvenience.

BTW, why I wrote potential bugs? Because the majority of "bug reports" postet in the last days where actually misunderstandings, improvement suggestions or feature wishes. And with third-party-plug-ins it is not always in our hand to fix a problem, but of course even if we cannot fix it, we try to get the plug-in-developers to fix it. But the one you described looks like our problem. Anyway, let me check it first. I will move your thread to the bugs and problems forum and post there.

Hi painseeker,

we need more information to help you. We need your system specs, your audio and midi devices and the plug-ins you use. Lets create a new thread in the bugs and problems forum.

Kind regards, Bernd.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Jul 24, 2004 11:15 pm

Wish someone would take the time to keep a database or spreadsheet of which plugs are playing nice, and which ones do not.

How about one of the lucky Live 4 owners to start a thread where they can report all succeses and failures, and compare notes?

D.

jpaz · Post by **jpaz** » Sun Jul 25, 2004 12:06 am

Verne, I downloaded SuperWave and I can't reproduce your problem. I have a dual monitor setup, and I can open and close the plugin over and over again in the secondary monitor with no problems at all. Maybe it's a video driver issue? Is your video card driver up to date?

JP

Verne Andru · Post by **Verne Andru** » Sun Jul 25, 2004 2:26 am

Hey JP,

I just tried it again with SuperWave and it seems to be working now. I ran through all my other VSTi's and it looks like Edirol Virtual Sound Canvas is the only one that still bugs out. Unfortunately, that's the one I tend to use the most [although SuperWave is way cool

].

Anybody have any of the other Edirol VSTi's to see if it may just be isolated to this one?

Verne Andru · Post by **Verne Andru** » Sun Jul 25, 2004 2:35 am

I installed a copy of the Edirol Hypercanvas demo and it seems to work fine. So its down to one VSTi - Edirol Virtual Sound Canvas. Yet it works flawlessly with Cubase SX....

forge · Post by **forge** » Sun Jul 25, 2004 8:57 am

Verne Andru wrote: But making a product release announcement at Summer NAMM [happening right now] is absolutely no excuse to releasing software that you know is buggy. This has caused Steinberg a huge amount of customer ill will and is a business model I was glad Ableton didn’t follow. Guess times have changed.

I’m hugely disappointed and don’t recommend anyone buy Live 4.0.1 until the known bugs have been fixed.

that's a bit extreme - I, and a few others wanted to be able to pre-order while funds were available, and you know Abes are about the most dilligent and quick to act bug fixers out there, so just see it as pre-ordering

Mine's been fine since b9

Verne Andru · Post by **Verne Andru** » Sun Jul 25, 2004 4:42 pm

Hey forge – pre-purchasing is one thing, selling unfinished code as “final” is another altogether.

I survived the Live 1 to 2 debacle [but didn't get the t-shirt]. It was as close to a disaster as you can get and I was hopeful Ableton had learned something from it. As far as I can see they went straight from beta 12 - which has numerous reports of problems - to shipping code without an interim beta release that users reported as working fine. I've been in the software biz off and on since the early 80's and have been involved with a few companies that released beta code and almost went out of business as a consequence.

While this post may appear a bit on the harsh side, it's only because I care about Ableton and want to see Live continue to evolve. I get really frustrated when I see an otherwise great company start making the same [obvious to me] mistakes that have left numerous others bankrupt and out of business. When a major show like NAMM comes along, it's always tempting to really press your development crew so you can have that BIG ANNOUNCEMENT of a new product release. Without shrink-wrap, the press tends to view it as vapour ware. The haste with which they went from beta 12 to shrink-wrap I think speaks for itself – especially considering the software still has problems.

One of my clients [www.Pigtronix.com] is also down at NAMM doing a rollout of their EnvelopePhaser. It's a guitar stompbox that involved developing and fine-tuning electronics, designing and developing a custom moulded aluminium chassis, doing the documentation, packaging, etc. and coordinating all this between the electronics guy in New York, me in Vancouver and a couple of factories in China. The electronics went through numerous mods right up to them coming off the assembly line. We rejected the first run of pedals 3 times because they used the wrong colour of yellow on the silk-screening on the pedal. Yes - we ran the risk of missing NAMM but chose to keep at it until we got it right. You only have one chance to make a first impression and all you do by shrink-wrapping a half-baked product is to create a bunch of very expensive boomerangs. As it was, we got them done properly and on time. I got a call from Nashville last night telling me Victor Wooten dropped by the booth and walked away smiling with a shiny new EnvelopePhaser under his arm. Say no more!

Sorry to sound preachy. The only reason I even bothered with this post is because I give a shit.

quandry · Post by **quandry** » Sun Jul 25, 2004 5:08 pm

whoa. All I know is that if one rather cheap vsti is crashing Live 4, its not the end of the world--heck, it sounds like it may not be reproducable on all systems. Sure, Live 4 is not totally bug free, but for an app that just introduced midi, it is working GREAT. In fact, the vstis I like (B4, lounge Lizard, Swar Plug, Moog stuff) have worked better in Live 4 than other apps I own (FL Studio, Cubase, etc.). As has been said before, some vsti themselves are the culprits, not Live. Beta testers helped Ableton zone in on the vstis that were'nt working initially, and ableton responded and made the vstis work in almost every case (and it wasn't always abletons fault that these vstis weren't working).

Basically, I think its asking a bit much to think that 4.0.1 will work with every version of every vsti out there--can any app do that? I think its hard to say they weren't hardcore about the beta test process, and that they responded very well and worked extremely quickly. I sympathize that your setup isn't working like you want it to, but lets give Ableton a bit of a deserved break, and rest assured they will look into your problem in due time. I personally am absolutely floored at how much a small company has done in such a short time, and I think that some of your comments are over-the-top, considering it is one vsti on YOUR system that is problematic, not the whole Live 4 software. Wasn't around for the 1>2 transition, but can say that 2 wasn't out for long before the SUPER stable 2.0.3 came out, and that 3 wasn't around but maybe a month before the equally stable 3.0.2 came out. Thus, though 4 is a whole new can of worms, I trust that Ableton know when we are close, and that if 4.0.1 does have issues, they'll be taken care of when the crew gets back from a WELL DESERVED break. Thanks ableton!

Ryan

Live 4.0.1 is buggy & crashes

Live 4.0.1 is buggy & crashes

agree

keeping track of the offending VSTi's

Re: Live 4.0.1 is buggy & crashes