Live GUI for Racks/Instruments: Conducive or Prohibitive?

Naive Teen Idol · Post by **Naive Teen Idol** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 4:47 pm

I posted this on another thread and think it might be worth breaking out for a larger one:

Am I the only one here who admires Live's instrument interfaces (Analog/etc., but particularly Racks) more from an aesthetic standpoint than a creative one?

I constantly am finding when I open third-party preset racks within Live that I have virtually no idea how anything is mapped and end up unfolding the rack a hundred times trying to get to the one parameter I'm looking for. It seems almost willfully designed to make tweaking happen in only the most rigid, modular way.

One could compare it to Reaktor in that sense -- but at least with Reaktor, you have panels you can customize. Here you have six knobs.

This same point has been discussed a little here as well with respect to Analog: http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=77955

Live has always been compact and tidy -- but since Live 6 at least, has it started to become less user-friendly?

synnack · Post by **synnack** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 5:00 pm

I was just thinking about this last night.

You have a whole screen of real estate, yet the ableton synths cannot occupy more than a small section at the bottom.

I think it speaks to Live being more of a performance tool, where things you tweak are mapped to hardware controllers anyway, than sound design. For sound design you'd want those synths full screen and customizable.

beats me · Post by **beats me** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 5:40 pm

Ha! I was thinking the same thing too. I have both the AAS synths and I bought the 7 Suite. I wouldn't call them the exact same thing as far as functionality but I seem a little more creative messing with the VST interface (on a second monitor) as opposed the the one squished into the Ableton interface, and that's saying a lot because the AAS GUIs are pretty ugly as far as softsynths go.

andydes · Post by **andydes** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 5:49 pm

You know that's one thing putting me off buying the suite.

Up until now, I've been using all third party plug ins and while I like the look of ableton's own plugs, I'll miss being able to have both the intrument panel and the piano roll open at once.

headquest · Post by **headquest** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 6:40 pm

I like the GUI for the instruments, especially Impulse. Some of the others need more parameter display, I agree.

I like the 2D look of Live in general. Easy on the eye, and its one of the few problems where I never get glitches caused by UI update.

I voted "prohibitive" specifically with relation to the Racks. The functionality in them is superb, and I can't think of a better way for them to be displayed... BUT I agree with the OP that they are confusing at times.

In fairness, I think that the Reason Combinator suffers in much the same way - with much power comes much... complexity.

headquest · Post by **headquest** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 6:41 pm

andydes wrote:Up until now, I've been using all third party plug ins and while I like the look of ableton's own plugs, I'll miss being able to have both the intrument panel and the piano roll open at once.

Excellent point!!

(although the main thing putting me off the Suite is that the synths are power hungry CPU monsters!)

Naive Teen Idol · Post by **Naive Teen Idol** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 6:50 pm

The Reason point is a good one. In my post on the other thread I mentioned, I said that I used to use Live 3 and Reason 2.5 in conjunction. I would typically put together melodies, riffs, beats, etc. in Reason, sequence them there (this was pre-sequencing for the Abes), and dump them into Live.

Putting aside the Rewire talk (I had zero problems) and the fact that Reason's old sequencer was pretty crap, the workflow--the ease of calling up sounds, laying down ideas, and mangling them in Live--was outstanding. The year-and-a-half or so I had that setup was probably the most creative I've been in years.

My move to a system with Live 6, Reaktor and a couple of VSTi's was simply based on wanting more options and liking the idea of having one centralized DAW. In retrospect, I underestimated how much my workflow would suffer. And having played around with the Ableton Suite demo last night, am now batting around the idea of getting Reason 4 or Kontakt, simply to have some basic, user-friendly instruments at the ready.

headquest · Post by **headquest** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 6:55 pm

Probably said it already in the other thread, but I think you've got the right idea...:

1) Reason 4 is superb, rewire is now better than ever with Live, and it gives a complete setup having them both (without the Ableton instruments)...

2) It obviously worked for you before, so i see no reason to doubt that the combination will again help you find your muse

Naive Teen Idol · Post by **Naive Teen Idol** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 7:14 pm

headquest wrote:Probably said it already in the other thread, but I think you've got the right idea...:

1) Reason 4 is superb, rewire is now better than ever with Live, and it gives a complete setup having them both (without the Ableton instruments)...

2) It obviously worked for you before, so i see no reason to doubt that the combination will again help you find your muse

headquest wrote:Regarding Reason vs Kontakt...

Reason is great for synths now (THOR) as well as samplers. And the Reason library - and refills in general - are way more efficient, taking up less hard drive space without necessarily being inferior at all (size is not everything in this case).

Also bear in mind stability (Reason has that more than anything else out there), low CPU (ditto) and customer support (NI have a bad reputation here too...)

Ha, headquest, we are now having this discussion over two threads. I was responding in the other one, but will post in the one I started instead.

I was going to say, yeah: the real question is whether to go what I know and trust (Reason) or with what seems to be the more "professional-grade" product (Kontakt 3). It's unfortunate that Kontakt 3 doesn't have a demo yet to see how easy it is to dive in.

But your point is well-taken -- I spent a lot of time mapping samples in NN-XT, am very comfortable using ReDrum as a rhythm programmer, and think THOR seems pretty great based on the demo. Plus, yeah, I can install on my internal HD, w/o having to buy an external. My only hangup really is that Kontakt 3 seems like the better overall product.

pat the dog · Post by **pat the dog** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 7:50 pm

tempus3r wrote:I was just thinking about this last night.

You have a whole screen of real estate, yet the ableton synths cannot occupy more than a small section at the bottom.

I think it speaks to Live being more of a performance tool, where things you tweak are mapped to hardware controllers anyway, than sound design. For sound design you'd want those synths full screen and customizable.

yep, i agree - that design has come from a live performance point of view where you'd want to keep an eye on your clips and mixer at the same time as your tweaking your sounds.

for normal daw work it's much less relevant and i personally prefer to open up vst instruments where you have a decent amount of space to work in and focus on the task at hand. so i voted prohibitive.

basic "locus of attention" interface design.

nowtime · Post by **nowtime** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:49 pm

headquest wrote:
I voted "prohibitive" specifically with relation to the Racks. The functionality in them is superb, and I can't think of a better way for them to be displayed... BUT I agree with the OP that they are confusing at times.

Lovin racks, but simply coloring each rack and nested rack differently would help SO much. Visually chaotic.

ze2be · Post by **ze2be** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 7:21 pm

nowtime wrote:
headquest wrote:
I voted "prohibitive" specifically with relation to the Racks. The functionality in them is superb, and I can't think of a better way for them to be displayed... BUT I agree with the OP that they are confusing at times.
Lovin racks, but simply coloring each rack and nested rack differently would help SO much. Visually chaotic.

Coloring would be great, also for tracks. Now if we could flip it around like Reason, that would be something... And if we could even mix and match modules like filters, oscilators and so on from all the native synths in this imaginary modular backflip view of the racks.. perhaps cycling 74 could influence some modular workflow..

As it is now, I find racks actually very cluttered. Take a look at Tracktions rack for comparising. everything is visible, like a Max (cycling 74) window.

http://www.performermag.com/images/Tracktion3.jpg

Tarekith · Post by **Tarekith** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:28 pm

Way too much scrolling needed in Live now that everything is crammed in the bottom.

headquest · Post by **headquest** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:35 pm

ze2be wrote: Coloring would be great, also for tracks.

+1

Take a look at Tracktions rack for comparising. everything is visible, like a Max (cycling 74) window.

http://www.performermag.com/images/Tracktion3.jpg

Tracktion's racks are great in many ways, and I certainly like the way the routing is presented.

HOWEVER.. they do not allow for the layering and splitting that Live's Racks allow. So they are ultimately a LOT less powerful.

I think it would be more difficult to use the Tracktion UI paradigm with Live's layering/splitting thrown in. So I'm not convinced that is the way to go...

Noel · Post by **Noel** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:20 pm

I voted prohibitive because digging down to the parameter you want to find is a pain - expecially when you get racks within racks within racks...

But in some ways it not to bad a thing. It's too tempting sometimes to carry on tweaking forever, constantly changinf your mind about things that you were quite happy with yesterday. Sometimes, in the name of progress, it's best to make your choices then fold everything up and forget it; move on to the next task.

+1 for rack coloring

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