2008

[exaltron]

Ok M. Bréqs, please explain then why we are in the middle east (all of it, not just iraq & afghanistan). Explain why we are fighting, and what we are fighting for. Explain why they are fighting against us, and what they are fighting for. And explain how continued presence in the middle east and fighting will lead to peace and not more violence.

Since you want to make this bigger than Iraq, so be it.

We (the West) are in the Middle East for strategic reasons. I don't dispute that. We need and want what they got (oil, strategic disposition). But, it's a two way street... The elites of the middle east want what we got (money), and their populations need what we got (certain elements of Western Civilization).

We're also there to ensure that the people of Israel aren't annhilated.

We're also there at the invite of various countries who can't sort their shit out themselves.

We're also there investing in infrastructure for too many countries inthe ME are too unskilled, corrupt or disorganized to do themselves (save for notable exceptions like Kuwait, Dubai and Israel).

Why does Saudi Arabia hire so many foreigners as engineers and skilled labour? Because they as a society have no skills themselves. A number of their Royal family may have degrees from Harvard, but the Saudi disdain for physical labour means that their society has to hire outsiders to connect two pipes together. Those societies in the ME that do have skills, are incredibly corrupt.

There's another "They" of whom you speak. (I love how simplistic arguments, rhetorical questions such as yours often use "They" rather than identifiable groups). This second group are the Salafists, Wahabists, and Islamists who are fighting against us because elements of the theocratic class and ruling elites fear the social influence we wield. Western Civilization is attractive, and they want to deny the benifits of it to their Thralls. They want to return to a period in the 7th century when they had power, but rather than do anything about it to improve their situation, they shit on the society who;

1. First abolished slavery (and successfully influenced other societies to do the same)
2. Invented mass communication
3. Invented modern democracy
4. Pushed the boundaries of science to the Astronomic and Atomic scale
5. Developed modern medicine, doubling the human lifespan.
6. First emancipated women
7. Established the concept of individual liberty
...I could go on.

Face it, Western Civilization is the greatest thing to happen to all of humanity. People want what we got, but their despots and religious leaders won't let them have it. That's why we should continue to be there.

Now, for a completely different question you asked; How will staying in the middle east produce more peace? In the short term, it will prevent 30 million people dying in a Sunni-Shiite civil war in Iraq. Saddam was doing that fine, but the US fucked that up. However, now that the US has done so, SOMEBODY has to prevent it.

In the medium to long term, we will continue to provide a positive example of how to run a just, stable society based on rationality rather than dogmatic, soul-crushing theocratic tyrrany. It will take generations, but the 7th century minded tyrants in the middle east will eventually lose their power to the will of the people who want to joint the 21st century...

WTF?? $ism is the root of all evil! Bush=Hitler!! Cultural Relativism is teh answer!!! The US is a murderous imperial juggernaut!!!!! CHOMSKYYYYY!!!!

Ahem, sorry force of habit, forgot I haven't been a leftist since '96. Seriously though, that is the most fierce batch of political science dropping I have seen on a music board EVER. Sounds like you have been exposed to the ideas of Ayn Rand at least indirectly.

Like your tunes on GarageBand too!!

[M. Bréqs]

WTF?? $ism is the root of all evil! Bush=Hitler!! Cultural Relativism is teh answer!!! The US is a murderous imperial juggernaut!!!!! CHOMSKYYYYY!!!!

Ahem, sorry force of habit, forgot I haven't been a leftist since '96. Seriously though, that is the most fierce batch of political science dropping I have seen on a music board EVER. Sounds like you have been exposed to the ideas of Ayn Rand at least indirectly.

Like your tunes on GarageBand too!!

Cool, thanks for the words on the tunes man. I'm at a shared internet terminal for the troops here, and there's no speakers... I'll check out your site as soon as I get to a proper workstation with internet access.

Yes, I 've read Ayn Rand. I liked Atlas Shrugs (I read it as a teenager and imagined that Dagny Taggart was friggin HOT in a business suit), but I found Howard Roark (the protagonast of the Fountainhead) to be rather whiny ("ooohhh, my artistic principles forbid me from fulfilling the terms of a contract I willfully accepted... Boo-hoo!").

...And hang around the Ableton forums, there's plenty of that sort of political / philosophical debate going around. Sometimes it's diatribes, sometimes it's pretty civil.

[M. Bréqs]

Problem: Without oil, the US economy would collapse.

Solution: USA invaded Iraq and US attempts to set up a new government that would bring stability to oil supplies.

Problem: Without a stable dollar, a strong US economy, the world as we know it will change.

Solution: China invades USA and attempts to set up a new government that would bring stability to the dollar, our economy and the world.

USA needs Mideast oil.
China needs US economy.

Does that mean we must go to war for this?

What happened to fair trade?

Why don't we focus our energy and money towards sustainability. Rely and take care of ourselves first, the world second.

Good point... But I think that the dollar crisis, as well as the current US foreign debt are easily solved. The US could simply welch on its debts. European banks, foreign states, the US could tell them all to fuck off. Come and collect, chumps. With the largest nuclear force on the planet, it's almost stupid for the US to NOT go into ridiculous debt, then default on purpose.

Think about it; the US borrows money from foreigners, builds up a military with that money, and then they have the power to choose not to pay up. Meanwhile, those foreign lenders, have their economies crippled even more so than the US. It's a winner scenario, and I sometimes wonder if it wasn't the plan all along...

So, in an isolationist society, who cares what your dollar is worth outside your borders? Exactly.

...Now resources like oil and water... That's trickier, and I think that the US is in a big deep pond of shit unless some clever conservation starts.

Furthermore, the USA should not be the one footing most of the bill to bring "peace" and "stability" to the world. We're broke because of it. If our policy was the best solution to bringing peace, why don't other countries step up to the plate and pay a fair share? Why do we continue to subsidize the defense of Europe? They are able to use the money saved on social programs, this is why they have health care and we don't. This is unfair and this policy no longer receives my support.

I agree with you 100% on this. Europeans, throughout the whole cold war, sat back and spent money on social programs rather than their own defence. The US stepped up to the plate, and foot the bill for defending Europe against the Soviets. Well, that disparity is exactly why Americans don't have health care or decent social programs. Every time an American gets sick and can't pay for it, he should shake his fist at Europe and Canada. We were the biggest ungrateful freeloaders in the 20th century.

[zstowasser]

Yeah I'm familiar with the collapse of the dollar meaning the debt disappears.. It could work, but china would be pissed.. and they are modernizing their military.. they are also partnering with Russia and Iran. This could lead us to WW3...

Here's another idea: Let's start working towards a future where we actually care about ethics, value human life and respect other people's property.



This is what I hope for in 2008, this is why I started this thread

The only way we will change the world is to start imagining the future. We create our own reality.

I would like to live in a society where violence and greed are shunned, just like we do with rape.

[Machinate]

Good point... But I think that the dollar crisis, as well as the current US foreign debt are easily solved. The US could simply welch on its debts. European banks, foreign states, the US could tell them all to fuck off. Come and collect, chumps. With the largest nuclear force on the planet, it's almost stupid for the US to NOT go into ridiculous debt, then default on purpose.

hmm, you dont seem to be thinking this through, though - I mean, IF the US decided to announce, hey, we're never paying back a single cent (which they already have in interests, but I digress), then the US would probably be unable to obtain new loans from anyone, and would, as a consequence, be unable to sustain.... much of.... anything, really. The ginormous miltary apparatus would crumble (eek, the horror!) and policy would be quite impossible.

What am I missing here, as someone not quite erudite in the macro-economics of it all?

[popslut]

I think that the dollar crisis, as well as the current US foreign debt are easily solved. The US could simply welch on its debts. European banks, foreign states, the US could tell them all to fuck off. Come and collect, chumps.

You're falling into the old trap of thinking that empires last forever and that powerful today means powerful forever.

The British made the same mistake, and the Romans before them and the Greeks before them and the Turks before them and so on ad infinitum.

In a few short years the USA will have become just another geopolitical backwater with a violent history and a threadbare economy, while some other country - probably China - will have taken on the mantle of "World Bully". At which point you can rest assured those "chumps" will collect with interest.

You can also be assured that they will make no bones about imposing their cultural standards upon the rest of the world and dismissing anyone who resists as an ungrateful savage.

"Operation Canadian Fleedom" anybody?

Heh...

With the largest nuclear force on the planet, it's almost stupid for the US to NOT go into ridiculous debt, then default on purpose.

Of course.

Because Russia and China and every other nuclear power on Earth are just going to stare at their shoes and do nothing if America starts getting the big toys out - rather than initiate simultaneous retalliatory strikes before you can say "Mutually Assured Destruction".

And who cares if the surviving population is having to feed itself by scavenging for dead dogs in a barren nuclear wasteland as long as the USA's national debt problem has been "solved"?

That's some badass "political science" you're dropping there Breqs.

You should run for office. You strike me as just the type.

[djgroovy]

I think that the dollar crisis, as well as the current US foreign debt are easily solved. The US could simply welch on its debts. European banks, foreign states, the US could tell them all to fuck off. Come and collect, chumps. (...)
With the largest nuclear force on the planet, it's almost stupid for the US to NOT go into ridiculous debt, then default on purpose.

With M. Bréqs in the office, Bush & Cheney would be kindergarten stuff... i hope they don't pick up your ideas.

How would you react if it was Russia who did just that? Nuk'em, right?
There you go.

War is not the solution to any problems, it's the cause of most of them, and the motives for war are never noble or altruistic.
You can quote me on that.

And those motives are imho primarily two:

1- Imperialist desire to take over other countrie's resources.
2- Hatred due to religious/political diferences, which are fomented always by the religious/political top leaders.

And this happens with the usa, russia, china, europe, israel, middle east, islamic, christians, jews, comunists, dictators or democracies.

So basically i think most our problems would be solved, if we, human race, would shift our focus from hatred, military power & wars, polution & shocking disregard for the lack of every human right except our own, in pursue of blind economic growth;
...instead turn our focus into using a clean energy source, such as the hydrogen, dismantlement of all military, keeping a reduced amount of civil police forces, and treat our planet's resources as global resources, divided proportionally between populations.

Colaboration instead of mortal competition.
How's that for economic growth, security & quality of life?

I know you're gonna say it's utopia, impossible, etc., and it probably won't happen in time, but if any survive when the nukes come out, i bet they will cooperate with each other...

My 0.02$

[popslut]

if any survive when the nukes come out, i bet they will cooperate with each other...

I do not know with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones.

[zstowasser]

groovy: I agree!!

Can you imagine a time when the world is dismantling the final and last nuclear bomb? I hope that happens soon and within my lifetime, not after and/or because of nuclear weapons!

popslut: great quote!

[fortycoats]

This second group are the Salafists, Wahabists, and Islamists who are fighting against us because elements of the theocratic class and ruling elites fear the social influence we wield. Western Civilization is attractive, and they want to deny the benifits of it to their Thralls. They want to return to a period in the 7th century when they had power

they are the people you are fighting to protect, they live in saudi arabia and pakistan, they are being armed to the teeth by the west despite the fact that pakistan's isi funded the 9/11 attacks (as confirmed by the fbi) and saudi arabia provided the hijackers, they are sworn enemies of iran and iraq, still feel good about your war of terror?

[OvertoneZero]

Nice speech by Obama yesterday after he won Iowa:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqoFwZUp5vc



If he makes it to the general election, I'll vote for him.

[zstowasser]

I watched that Obama speech. He is a good speaker. I like how he says America. He keeps talking about Change. And Hope. Touches up on the big issues - Iraq, Healthcare, Lobbyists and Alternative Energies. He keeps saying he will cause change, but doesn't explain any facts or specifics. I've heard some speeches from him before as well. Maybe americans really are that gullable.. I've lost "hope" and "trust" in politicians, unless they back up their claims with content and have a track record to prove they mean what they say.

Obama worries me that he will be like most politicians - full off empty promises and/or incapable to really comprehend and solve the problems.

Plus, when the dollar collapses and the US economy is in a recession, how does Obama plan to pay for everything?

BTW - scary new rudy giuliani TV ad "The next crisis is moments away". if he gets elected, prepare for WW3 / Police Sate! http://bravenewfilms.org/blog/23304-rud ... oment-away

[OvertoneZero]

Yeah, I hear ya.. Sure it all sounds nice, but how? My sense is that Obama plans to stick it hard to the upper tax bracket.

Alternative Energies can be promoted within the country, and the collapsing dollar will only encourage internal development to reduce dependence on foreign oil.

As for the healthcare bit.. it sounds idealistic... and very expensive. Lobbyists will always be around.

The Iraq talk is probably BS to an extent, I'm pretty sure that all of the mainstream candidates with the exception of Edwards will maintain a U.S. presence there for a while in order to prevent total destabilization of the region. It's a lesser of two evils type of scenario now..

[djadonis206]

This is actually one of the better political threads I've ever seen on Ableton

no name calling, random swear words, a reference to hitler did come out but that's expected

carry on - I'm actually learning something here

peace


a

[Machinesworking]

Face it, Western Civilization is the greatest thing to happen to all of humanity.

The reason a nation of any stripe goes to war right there. Of course your aware that all fascist governments use that argument previous to attacking another nation they deem inferior morally or ethically right? Just replace Western Civilization with the name of a country and take a look at the results.

Face it, Rome is the greatest thing to happen to all of humanity.

Face it, Nazi Germany is the greatest thing to happen to all of humanity.

Face it, Stalin is the greatest thing to happen to all of humanity.

Face it, White Civilization is the greatest thing to happen to all of humanity.

Face it, Western Civilization is the greatest thing to happen to all of humanity?

Ask any survivors of any great western ideological advancement, and you might get a different opinion. I doubt the small amount of Native Americans here in the states would agree that the constitution helped them out.

I don't apologize to anybody for being a white man in the USA, but I'll never understand how conservatives can only look at themselves and see how dammed cool they think they are?? Seriously, any indication that the situation is not a bowl of cherries runs up against this sort of cultural bragging, it's odd to me.