One Day The Americans Decided To BBQ A City For No Reason

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
LeifonMars
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Post by LeifonMars » Fri Aug 15, 2008 6:07 am

rjbourc wrote:
landrvr1 wrote:Actually, the Japanese should thank their lucky stars that the Chinese didn't develop the bomb first and had the time to get a dozen or so. The entire fucking mainland would have been a smoking ruin.
Lucky, yeah, but not much of a threat, was it? The Chinese ended up about 20 years too late to the nuclear party to pull off that stunt.
...and it took another 20 years from them to develope something to deliver them.

silverlulu
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Post by silverlulu » Fri Aug 15, 2008 6:09 am

woooooooooo adventurepants you must have a massive dick!!!!!

i guess you're referring to gook yeah? it was provocative ironic american bigotry . the whole USA USA USA chanting mentality.

my flat mate is half-Malaysian and once i spoke to someone who was Japanese. oh wait, maybe he just went to japan. oh nevermind some of my electronics are Japanese... i think.
1.6ghz dual core laptop, 1.5 gig ram - Live 6, Massive, Albino, Z3ta, Battery, Morphine, Dominator. Alesis io2, Edirol pcr-30 midi keyboard, perception 100 mic and shure sm 58 mic.

rjbourc
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Post by rjbourc » Fri Aug 15, 2008 6:20 am

LeifonMars wrote:...and it took another 20 years from them to develope something to deliver them.
True, but to bomb Japan a junk would have sufficed...

Baron von Case
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Post by Baron von Case » Fri Aug 15, 2008 9:14 am

Yeah, 'cause the 20- to 30-year-old demographic on this forum were the ones responsible for that. Stick the music, not the mathematics.

nathannn
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Post by nathannn » Fri Aug 15, 2008 9:24 am

Baron von Case wrote: Stick the music, not the mathematics.
its stick TO the music not stick the music...ha... hahaha..!!!
you been had!!!!
i bet you feel stupid now huh???
dont try to regulate my english you butt.
The Push / Novation Launch Pad / Novation Launch Pad Pro / Novation Launch Key
/ Launch Control XL / Machine MkII / Machine Studio / BeatStep / Livid OhmRGB / Livid Code V2 / Apc 40 MKII

no computers or synths

20 Copies of Ableton Live Lite.

nathannn
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Post by nathannn » Fri Aug 15, 2008 9:29 am

ha!!!!
ha ha ha ha ha!!!!!
ugggggg!!!!!
i need to get a life..
The Push / Novation Launch Pad / Novation Launch Pad Pro / Novation Launch Key
/ Launch Control XL / Machine MkII / Machine Studio / BeatStep / Livid OhmRGB / Livid Code V2 / Apc 40 MKII

no computers or synths

20 Copies of Ableton Live Lite.

silverlulu
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Post by silverlulu » Fri Aug 15, 2008 9:29 am

no way, you use ejay! how's that treating you?

i once had ejay, i think it was ejay 2. they were the days.
1.6ghz dual core laptop, 1.5 gig ram - Live 6, Massive, Albino, Z3ta, Battery, Morphine, Dominator. Alesis io2, Edirol pcr-30 midi keyboard, perception 100 mic and shure sm 58 mic.

nathannn
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Post by nathannn » Fri Aug 15, 2008 9:34 am

silverlulu wrote:no way, you use ejay! how's that treating you?

i once had ejay, i think it was ejay 2. they were the days.
honestly it was ejay and mtv music generator that got me into making music with computers. it was back in 99 or something..
i used to make these horrible songs with pre made loops and give them to my friends (i would tell them i made the music myself) then some one finally called me out on it and showed me fruity loops.
The Push / Novation Launch Pad / Novation Launch Pad Pro / Novation Launch Key
/ Launch Control XL / Machine MkII / Machine Studio / BeatStep / Livid OhmRGB / Livid Code V2 / Apc 40 MKII

no computers or synths

20 Copies of Ableton Live Lite.

silverlulu
Posts: 357
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Post by silverlulu » Fri Aug 15, 2008 9:53 am

yeah thats what happened with me. i got it in a bargain bin in pc world when my mate wanted to get something else, and i ended up buying it and it started me off in making music. i wonder if i would have ever got to where i am musically today if i hadn't gone to pc world all those years ago.

yeah i did the same with the loops and samples. i made this pretty cool tune that i thought i could rap over and be the next white rapper. it was about 3 clips repeated over and over. then i moved to fruity loops which didn't last long, and now i am getting to grips with live.

wow, don't you love my story!
1.6ghz dual core laptop, 1.5 gig ram - Live 6, Massive, Albino, Z3ta, Battery, Morphine, Dominator. Alesis io2, Edirol pcr-30 midi keyboard, perception 100 mic and shure sm 58 mic.

the ar
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Post by the ar » Fri Aug 15, 2008 1:44 pm

Tone Deft wrote: the ar - I was surprised at your post, I even looked up the dates and it wasn't even feasible, so I posted. if you made a mistake, big fucking deal, if that's the worst thing you do this week it's a good week.
Just to make things clear, in my first post in this topic I was acting like one of those 'I know it all' conspiracy theorists.
I tossed so much crap in there that I was pretty sure that nobody would've taken it seriously.
Word.

the ar
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Post by the ar » Fri Aug 15, 2008 1:47 pm

And by the way, I enjoyed that mini-flame with Tone Deft.
He IS shrewd.
He is also a picky bi0tch, but I think he's a nice guy and he definitely knows what he's talking about when it comes down to audio related stuff.

landrvr1
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Post by landrvr1 » Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:57 pm

Machinesworking wrote:
knotkranky wrote:The U.S. killed more japanese with conventional weapons and firebombing than the atomic bombs.

Fog of war. Your answer > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=er2xCn3_QcQ
Wow!


That's exactly right, and I forgot to mention that. I believe that more people were also killed in the firebombing of Dresden, Germany than in both A-bomb attacks as well. People simply fix on the A-Bombs because they were, um, ATOMIC.


Which leads me to another point.


The Revision History and Neo-Liberal outrage over the US dropping the A-Bombs is nothing more than an attempt to apply current perceptions and feelings of distaste for the current administration and war in Iraq to an event which occured under completely different circumstances. The main argument is that Japan was collapsing from the inside out and that, given a little more time, they would have eventually surrendered.

That's an interesting argument to be sure, and one that any sane person WISHES could have happened. The problem is that it's 100% emotional based, and the facts of the situation paint a very different picture.

The leadership in Japan were bitterly divided over whether or not they should surrender, or prolong the war in order to perhaps gain one of two more strategic victories. Victories that would have, in their minds, given them more bargaining power at the peace table. Victories that would have, incidentally, cost them very dearly in terms of their own fatalities - tens of thousands more deaths; depending on which battle scenario they decided upon. They were not under any illusions that they could win at that point. They knew it was over. However, their feelings about the sanctity of the Emperor and his rule - and their general philosophy of existence with honor - utterly prevented them from giving up. Sheer madness might also simply play a part. At this point they viewed their own civilian population as little more than fodder. Most able-bodied men were either dead or injured. The only soldiers left were old men. That civilian population that were, right up until the end, being trained to give their lives in the event of an Allied Invasion? They were mostly women, children, old men, and invalids.

The Potsdam Declaration was issued almost 2 weeks prior to the dropping of the first bomb.

It was quite clear in it's demands:
Immediate, unconditional surrender, or face total destruction.

It did not mince words.

The Japanese ignored it almost entirely. Fixated instead on what Russia was doing. They had their opportunity to end it, and they said 'nay'.



The notion that the US just willy-nilly dropped the bombs out of sheer malice, without any warning whatsoever, is irresponsible in the extreme. Perfect for the times, really. But, again, containing no basis in reality. The notion that we dropped the 2nd bomb just to see if it would work as well as the first, or to show the Soviets how big our balls were, is also little more than applying current perceptions of the Bush Administration to events of 60+ years ago. The Soviets got the message after the first bomb.

The idea that the 2nd bomb was simply 'piling on' is silly. The decision to drop 2 bombs had been made prior. I can't remember exactly when, but if I remember correctly, just 6 months prior they weren't even positive they would have one bomb - let alone 2. Once they had two, the leadership under Truman formed a very clear plan. We drop the first. We demand surrender. No surrender? Bomb #2.

The lines of communication and diplomacy were wide open as of the 9th. There were the usual rumblings from far off Japanese diplomats that Japan might consider talking. No formal contact was initiated by the Japanese leadership.


The very fact that it took 6 days after Nagasaki for them to formally surrender says everything about the Japanese mentality at the time. They were willing to go the long haul. It cannot be stressed enough that the Japanese were given ample time after Potsdam to surrender. This is an undisputed fact. The position of the Revisionist History Neo-Liberals is that the terms were unfavorable to the Japanese. That it was humiliating and demeaning. The emotional response for most in this argument is 'Fuck the Japanese. They waged a horrid brutal war. They deserve no concessions."; and that would in fact be a valid response.

However, the Potsdam Declaration was no Treaty of Versailles; that would have left Japan in total economic ruin with no hope of recovery. On the contrary, without getting into the specific details the Potsdam Declaration was phenominally fair - allowing Japanese industry and trade to flourish. Versailles gutted Germany because of it's deep restrictions. Potsdam was no such document.


In the end, for someone like b0unce the dropping of the Atomic Bombs might as well have occured yesterday. He makes no distinction between then and now. Refuses to put anything into context. FDR and Truman become Bush. He is not alone. He's in good company. Scores of anti-Americans and Revisionist Neo-Liberals are lined up next to him. It's not surprising, therefore, that we are beginning to see a new wave of books and writings also start to crop up. Books that are making a strong claim that Japan's atrocities did in fact not occur - or at the very least, occurred in such small numbers as to be irrelevant. Nanking becomes a subject of debate, instead of a historical fact. The more that time goes on, the more easier it gets to 'Revisit' history and make of it what you will.

There's a few old women left in Nanking who might have a thing or two to say about that.


...

hambone1
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Post by hambone1 » Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:08 pm

landrvr1 wrote:It was quite clear in it's demands:
Immediate, unconditional surrender, or face total destruction.

It did not mince words.
Precisely.

Again, fully justified action to end the carnage that the Japanese themselves started.

landrvr1
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Post by landrvr1 » Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:24 pm

hambone1 wrote:
landrvr1 wrote:It was quite clear in it's demands:
Immediate, unconditional surrender, or face total destruction.

It did not mince words.
Precisely.

Again, fully justified action to end the carnage that the Japanese themselves started.

It should also be noted that when news of the bombs reached Americans, they cheered.

When actual photos of the devastation were published, there was no cheering. No flag waving. No huge billboards with photos of what we did to those 'Jap Bastards.' No editorials stridently stating that the Japanese 'got what they deserved'. Quite the opposite in fact.

People were mortified and sickened. They didn't exactly have regrets over what their government did, but even the most conservative of papers and politicians at the time lamented their use.

...

andydes
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Post by andydes » Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:49 pm

Fair points, Landrvr1. Although this part is kind of ironic, after the way you carried on in the other similarly titled thread:
landrvr1 wrote: In the end, for someone like b0unce the dropping of the Atomic Bombs might as well have occured yesterday. He makes no distinction between then and now. Refuses to put anything into context.
I think that may have been his point.

You'd like to think a demonstration of what could happen would have been enough, but it appears not. And they didn't have the capability to make more if they did need them. Maybe a little more time for everyone to see the damage first hand would have helped, who knows. Tough call. I sure as hell wouldn't have wanted to make it.

And yeah, we killed more in dresden.

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