On Palins speech....

[Tone Deft]

dunno what to say, all your points are about you. if I were to respond it'd be more of the same, couldn't be good.

[deva]

When the US backed coup attempt to overthrow Chavez in Venezuela was happening, 1 million Venezuelans surrounded the presidential palace. Carrying a gun is common in Venezuela. I've read that it is 1 in 4. That means there were 250,000 guns demanding that they get their president back.

They got their president back.

Protection against an increasingly domineering government is a good reason to have a gun(s).

The coup attempt against Chavez was realized when the palace guards decided to join in, and turned on the 'new' government, arresting them and effectively ending the coup. Basically if you don't have at least a portion of the military on your side in any revolution, you're fucked, hunting rifles and handguns aside.

I'm not anti right to bear arms, but look at the Beslan hostage massacre in Russia.
Beyond the fact that the chechnyian rebels were evil pukes, what really set it off was that the fathers were all armed, and stormed the school as soon as they heard gunfire. There wasn't enough military and police there to stop them at that point, and unfortunately it turned out the gunfire was the chechnyians shooting each other.

Anyway, my point is the right to bear arms is not a black and white issue by any means, and has no significance in debates about presidential candidates. The USA senate, congress, and supreme court is not going to be swayed into changing gun laws to any noticeable degree by any president IMO, it's bullshit that has nothing to do with issues a change of party can affect.

Who are the lobbyists behind McCain and Obama? Who are their advisers? Those are questions we should be asking, and what we should worry about.

I think it has some significance in discussions about presidential candidates. Not because of gun control legislations, but because the government has run amok and a whole lotta citizens had better get serious about doing something about it. It is not that I think everyone should get a gun as such, but that the image of getting a gun means you are gonna do something... you are gonna defend yourself, be responsible for yourself... you are no longer gonna let yourself be stepped on. That is the spirit that is needed in a country that is remarkably obedient and passive.

The reason we talk about freedom so much is because we don't know what it is or have it.

And yes, all the armed Venezuelans outside the presidential palace influenced and gave courage to the palace guards to do the right thing. A million armed people is a mighty and palpable psychic force to reckon with.

[nbr0118]

The Republican national convention was the funniest shit I have ever seen. It was like a Saturday Night live skit, I couldn't believe that shit was real. Mccain said "I know about war, I know about the world." That was priceless stupidity. Sadly after the whole show is over I came back to reality and realized that these people might actually be in a position of power very soon. Very scary indeed, if Mccain gets elected I'm leaving the country for sure. It will take another 50 years for this country to be on par with other "reformed" countries, places that have real democratic elections, healthcare for everyone, and education for everyone. As long as the leaders keep referring to god and have anything to do with evangelical christians we will continue to be fucked. Or rather you will, because I'm leaving...

...please save us the suspense and leave now. It's obvious that most people on this forum have never lead anything in their life, nor would they respect anyone in a leadership role if he/she did not agree with their world view.

I hear these comments...and I hear people with absolutely no clue about the people they disagree with....it's like hearing a bunch of teen kids pretending they understand how the world works...according to their vast life experiences.

I would at least have more respect for these forums if they would at least take disagreements with a little more respect. It is funny...you guys are all about being open-minded....you can't even have civilized discussions because you're so pissed off at the world.

Here is a piece of advice: The world is not some giant conspiracy..where people with money and power are out to get you. Generally people are genuine and honest...even if they are wrong to think the way they do. If they are wrong...do something about it. Take McCain's advice...work your way into a position where you can actually make a difference in the world.

I'll fill you in on something. If you accept that challenge, you'll be a happier person....and ironically you will understand your enemies better...and will better understand how to deal with them. Basically, what I am saying is...GROW UP!!

[b0unce]

blow me

[deva]

...please save us the suspense and leave now. It's obvious that most people on this forum have never lead anything in their life, nor would they respect anyone in a leadership role if he/she did not agree with their world view.

I have led things in my life and I can say right off that you do not need to have led anything to know bullshit when you hear it. Millions of people marched in the streets opposing the soon to be launched war in Iraq because they knew that the government was telling a bunch of bald faced lies... WMD's in Iraq, Iraq responsible for 9/11 blah blah blah... I guess in your mind all those millions of working people, parents, teachers, etc are all childish losers who need to grow up. I think you should look in a mirror.

Right now, there is no leadership in DC.

A whole bunch of people just had their rights violated at the RNC. People are facing felony charges after being arrested BEFORE the convention, and charged with things that never happened and never would have happened. A friend of mine had her arm broken by by the police because they did not like that she was videotaping. Did she do one thing illegal? no!

The police targeted journalists on the streets. The Democracy Now team was violently arrested, bloodied, and a couple of them are facing felony charges for doing nothing but journalism. Houses where independent videographers were staying were raided prior to the convention and all their computers and cameras were seized. No crime except being independent.

That is fascism right there. And not one of the major candidates is saying a damn thing about it. They are bought and owned, their souls sold for a place at the fascist table.

Here is a piece of advice: The world is not some giant conspiracy..where people with money and power are out to get you. Generally people are genuine and honest...even if they are wrong to think the way they do. If they are wrong...do something about it. Take McCain's advice...work your way into a position where you can actually make a difference in the world.

That is currently not possible. Anyone with real integrity will be squeezed out long before they get a chance to make a difference. The political process is owned by big money and integrity has no place at the table.

If there were anything at all like a free political process, Ron Paul would be running against Ralph Nader. Ron Paul was the only candidate of the 2 major parties who mentioned the rise of fascism during the primary campaign. Any candidate who actually believes in freedom and democratic process would state uncategorically that the Patriot Act needs to be abolished, an end needs to be made of government spying on citizens, stop illegal search and seizure, and the Bill of Rights and Constitution upheld (among other things).

And yes, generally people are genuine and honest. That does not include politicians who have made prevarication and lies into a way of life.

[funknotik]

The Republican national convention was the funniest shit I have ever seen. It was like a Saturday Night live skit, I couldn't believe that shit was real. Mccain said "I know about war, I know about the world." That was priceless stupidity. Sadly after the whole show is over I came back to reality and realized that these people might actually be in a position of power very soon. Very scary indeed, if Mccain gets elected I'm leaving the country for sure. It will take another 50 years for this country to be on par with other "reformed" countries, places that have real democratic elections, healthcare for everyone, and education for everyone. As long as the leaders keep referring to god and have anything to do with evangelical christians we will continue to be fucked. Or rather you will, because I'm leaving...

...please save us the suspense and leave now. It's obvious that most people on this forum have never lead anything in their life, nor would they respect anyone in a leadership role if he/she did not agree with their world view.

I hear these comments...and I hear people with absolutely no clue about the people they disagree with....it's like hearing a bunch of teen kids pretending they understand how the world works...according to their vast life experiences.

I would at least have more respect for these forums if they would at least take disagreements with a little more respect. It is funny...you guys are all about being open-minded....you can't even have civilized discussions because you're so pissed off at the world.

Here is a piece of advice: The world is not some giant conspiracy..where people with money and power are out to get you. Generally people are genuine and honest...even if they are wrong to think the way they do. If they are wrong...do something about it. Take McCain's advice...work your way into a position where you can actually make a difference in the world.

I'll fill you in on something. If you accept that challenge, you'll be a happier person....and ironically you will understand your enemies better...and will better understand how to deal with them. Basically, what I am saying is...GROW UP!!

What happy crappy, fisherprice, television sitcom, my little pony dimension are you living in? Take Mccains advice? Did you watch the fucking speech? He said "I know about the world, I know about war," what kind of a meaningless statement is that? You have to be more retarded and infantile than Palins youngest son to think that there is anything relevant I can extract from your response. We live in a polyarchy and we have a two party system, that sucks and I should be angry about it. Thats not even the least of our problems, and your wondering why people are angry? Everyone should be angry that the constitution is violated on a daily basis, that their is an unjustified war going on, that education and health care are not freely available as they are in the rest of the "civilized" world. Conformity is not a cure for any of these problems and not being in a position of leadership is irrelevant to my arguement. The anouncement of Palins' candidacy for Vice president was exactly what I said it was a JOKE suitable for a Saturaday anight live skit. It looked more like an evangelical revival than a political meeting.

This is not conspiracy either my friend this is what we call in technical literature... "REALITY." This also happens to be well documented in any political science journal worth reading. Read the American journal of political science, or research "Manufacturing Consent, learn about the propaganda model created by Edward S. Herman. Don't just take a spoonful of shit and eat it because it's patriotic. Learn about your government, read about the governments of other nations.

Did you know Bolivia has a more "DEMOCRACTIC" government than we do, they held a multi party election in 2005. This should be an example to people who are satisfied with America's propaganda model and how it filters any dissidence through major media outlets. Here is an excerpt I believe from Noam Chomsky's "Manufacturing consent."

"Labor newspapers and other grassroots media are generally shut down. But dominant radio and TV licenses have literally been handed over to corporate titans, and "advertiser strikes" have made independent newspapers more costly to the reader than their corporate competitors. The result is most global media is consolidated in the hands of a few large corporations, an interlocking cartel representing huge armsmakers,like General Electric (NBC), Westinghouse (CBS), and labor abusers- like Disney (ABC). As with most hierarchically-organized businesses, editors and reporters quickly learn what will and won’t please the people in charge."

To refute one of the stupidest things you said about disgruntled teenagers. Access to information is greater now than it has ever been, so the possibility for a teenager to "understand how the world works" atleast politically is very real. Do you really find it impossible for someone under the age of 20 to read an article online and decide to learn more about the subject? Is the political process so alien to you that the idea of someone young having greater knowledge than you is inconvievable? Also please enlighten us since we the meek and mild proletarians have never been in a glorious and powerful "leadership position," like you have. What exactly are you the leader of, and who the fuck would follow you?

[mikemc]

The police targeted journalists on the streets. The Democracy Now team was violently arrested, bloodied, and a couple of them are facing felony charges for doing nothing but journalism. Houses where independent videographers were staying were raided prior to the convention and all their computers and cameras were seized. No crime except being independent.
.

Journalists aren't all glorious truthseekers, we all know that with the right camera angles it's easy to make a gathering of a dozen rabid people seem like they represent a maddened howling throng. Any news has to be taken with at least a grain of salt. Having said that...

People who say that "it's not all a big conspiracy" are correct.

But to say that there could be machinations going on that most people don't suspect is correct also.

For the people who want to control the public opinion, the view of these sorts of 'independents' and 'fringe journalist' groups is that they are mostly an opposing side of the propaganda equation.

Giving all benefits of all doubts all around, there may be something to be said for that-- these people are just as prone to bias as any other, they may get contributions from sources with a particular agenda, they have their own flavor of sensationalism, and in their pursuit of news are apt to be disinformed: there is big benefit to various interests, domestic and abroad, to be heard in the US public's ear through whatever available channels.

Given all that, they are at least no better or worse than any other 'big time' journalists, and their freedom to operate is similarly specifically protected by the consitution.

So, unless there is some particularly compelling evidence that these journalists were somehow acting as something other than journalists at the time, it should be clear that people currently in power in both major parties generally do not benefit from a proliferation of "Michael Moore types".

Therefore it is not 'wacky conspiracy theorism' to suggest that the powers-that-be may well have taken a convenient opportunity to 'neutralize' them.

While I think it is not out of the realm of possibility that 'provocateurs' might be able to obtain press credentials in order to somehow better stir up protests, clearly at least one of the people who were arrested here is a long-time, legit, US-based reporter, and as such thoroughly protected by the Constitution.

[Emissary]

The Republican national convention was the funniest shit I have ever seen. It was like a Saturday Night live skit, I couldn't believe that shit was real. Mccain said "I know about war, I know about the world." That was priceless stupidity. Sadly after the whole show is over I came back to reality and realized that these people might actually be in a position of power very soon. Very scary indeed, if Mccain gets elected I'm leaving the country for sure. It will take another 50 years for this country to be on par with other "reformed" countries, places that have real democratic elections, healthcare for everyone, and education for everyone. As long as the leaders keep referring to god and have anything to do with evangelical christians we will continue to be fucked. Or rather you will, because I'm leaving...

...please save us the suspense and leave now. It's obvious that most people on this forum have never lead anything in their life, nor would they respect anyone in a leadership role if he/she did not agree with their world view.

I hear these comments...and I hear people with absolutely no clue about the people they disagree with....it's like hearing a bunch of teen kids pretending they understand how the world works...according to their vast life experiences.

I would at least have more respect for these forums if they would at least take disagreements with a little more respect. It is funny...you guys are all about being open-minded....you can't even have civilized discussions because you're so pissed off at the world.

Here is a piece of advice: The world is not some giant conspiracy..where people with money and power are out to get you. Generally people are genuine and honest...even if they are wrong to think the way they do. If they are wrong...do something about it. Take McCain's advice...work your way into a position where you can actually make a difference in the world.

I'll fill you in on something. If you accept that challenge, you'll be a happier person....and ironically you will understand your enemies better...and will better understand how to deal with them. Basically, what I am saying is...GROW UP!!

What happy crappy, fisherprice, television sitcom, my little pony dimension are you living in? Take Mccains advice? Did you watch the fucking speech? He said "I know about the world, I know about war," what kind of a meaningless statement is that? You have to be more retarded and infantile than Palins youngest son to think that there is anything relevant I can extract from your response. We live in a polyarchy and we have a two party system, that sucks and I should be angry about it. Thats not even the least of our problems, and your wondering why people are angry? Everyone should be angry that the constitution is violated on a daily basis, that their is an unjustified war going on, that education and health care are not freely available as they are in the rest of the "civilized" world. Conformity is not a cure for any of these problems and not being in a position of leadership is irrelevant to my arguement. The anouncement of Palins' candidacy for Vice president was exactly what I said it was a JOKE suitable for a Saturaday anight live skit. It looked more like an evangelical revival than a political meeting.

This is not conspiracy either my friend this is what we call in technical literature... "REALITY." This also happens to be well documented in any political science journal worth reading. Read the American journal of political science, or research "Manufacturing Consent, learn about the propaganda model created by Edward S. Herman. Don't just take a spoonful of shit and eat it because it's patriotic. Learn about your government, read about the governments of other nations.

Did you know Bolivia has a more "DEMOCRACTIC" government than we do, they held a multi party election in 2005. This should be an example to people who are satisfied with America's propaganda model and how it filters any dissidence through major media outlets. Here is an excerpt I believe from Noam Chomsky's "Manufacturing consent."

"Labor newspapers and other grassroots media are generally shut down. But dominant radio and TV licenses have literally been handed over to corporate titans, and "advertiser strikes" have made independent newspapers more costly to the reader than their corporate competitors. The result is most global media is consolidated in the hands of a few large corporations, an interlocking cartel representing huge armsmakers,like General Electric (NBC), Westinghouse (CBS), and labor abusers- like Disney (ABC). As with most hierarchically-organized businesses, editors and reporters quickly learn what will and won’t please the people in charge."

To refute one of the stupidest things you said about disgruntled teenagers. Access to information is greater now than it has ever been, so the possibility for a teenager to "understand how the world works" atleast politically is very real. Do you really find it impossible for someone under the age of 20 to read an article online and decide to learn more about the subject? Is the political process so alien to you that the idea of someone young having greater knowledge than you is inconvievable? Also please enlighten us since we the meek and mild proletarians have never been in a glorious and powerful "leadership position," like you have. What exactly are you the leader of, and who the fuck would follow you?

as the cool kids like to say.. "i think you definitely pwned nbr0118 "

[ethios4]

Well, MSNBC is canning Keith Olbermann. Apparently he crossed the line one too many times. No more Countdown.... ....fascists!!

[djadonis206]

Well, MSNBC is canning Keith Olbermann. Apparently he crossed the line one too many times. No more Countdown.... ....fascists!!

...and will use the two newsmen as commentators

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jlhz ... wD932KE000

[nebulae]

Well, MSNBC is canning Keith Olbermann. Apparently he crossed the line one too many times. No more Countdown.... ....fascists!!

Olbermann will still do Countdown - it's the highest rated on the network, so I doubt they'd can that...

the biggest disappointment is really that there is now no real answer to Fox. The others are all left leaning (meaning pussies). David Gregory is kinda douchy.

[doc holiday]

Dang, with a family of 7, Sarah Palins family will receive a check from the state for:
$22,400

2,000 PFD, plus this year AK is giving all residents a 1,200 energy cost rebate.

so this state that is king of pork has enough budget surplus to hand out 2 billion dollars to its 600,000 residents


http://www.adn.com/legislature/story/488420.html

[nebulae]

Dang, with a family of 5, Sarah Palins family will receive a check from the state for:
$22,400

2,000 PFD, plus this year AK is giving all residents a 1,200 energy cost rebate.

so this state that is king of pork as enough budget surplus to hand out 2 billion dollars to its 600,000 residents


http://www.adn.com/legislature/story/488420.html

Hey, you want your oil to flow? then shut yer damn pie hole!

[Tone Deft]

Dang, with a family of 5, Sarah Palins family will receive a check from the state for:
$22,400

2,000 PFD, plus this year AK is giving all residents a 1,200 energy cost rebate.

so this state that is king of pork as enough budget surplus to hand out 2 billion dollars to its 600,000 residents


http://www.adn.com/legislature/story/488420.html

will she get more since when her grandchild is born? the grandchild's mom is underage and still a dependent of Sarah Palin.

[nebulae]

Dang, with a family of 5, Sarah Palins family will receive a check from the state for:
$22,400

2,000 PFD, plus this year AK is giving all residents a 1,200 energy cost rebate.

so this state that is king of pork as enough budget surplus to hand out 2 billion dollars to its 600,000 residents


http://www.adn.com/legislature/story/488420.html

will she get more since when her grandchild is born? the grandchild's mom is underage and still a dependent of Sarah Palin.

Sounds exactly like the kind of government corruption we need a reformist to tackle. Calling Gov. Palin!