Democracy still works. Bill a no go

[forge]

I'm not so worried about a huge crash.
Worst comes to the worst i have all i need right now and own about 80% of it..
NZ produces a food surplice..
We are surrounded by ocean and are a long way from most every body..
We have the Pitch Black boys to bring the noise to the party..
And great beaches for the party..

don't get too cocky! http://au.news.yahoo.com/a/-/newshome/5048278

[Homebelly]

I'm not so worried about a huge crash.
Worst comes to the worst i have all i need right now and own about 80% of it..
NZ produces a food surplice..
We are surrounded by ocean and are a long way from most every body..
We have the Pitch Black boys to bring the noise to the party..
And great beaches for the party..

don't get too cocky! http://au.news.yahoo.com/a/-/newshome/5048278

Ffftt..
That's nothing...
Auckland has big ass fuck off volcano right in the middle of the harbor.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rangitoto
Its about 600 or seven hundred years old...
Some geologists reckon it might go off again,, others say it won't.
The US treasury and the FED told us all not to worry about stuff a year ago.
Now we stand on the edge of Armagedon...

[deva]

here is an interesting video clip from 2 years ago with one analyst accurately predicting the current situation

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfascZSTU4o

[deva]

this one is really fun...

and a good reminder that life goes on when financial markets collapse
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AtxSDMc87I

[elxicano]

Sorry to say that this is not a victory.

This is a lose-lose situation and while I'm sure some of you have that mentality where we need to fail as a nation before serious change can happen... all i can say is that you'll grow up eventually.

This is not about anyone getting things "right" but instead just a bunch of political bickering between elected officials that want to stay elected without making bold moves.

I'm not in favor of this deal, but we do need a quick fix... a sort of band-aid if you will, because the consequences are much greater and the saddest part is that it only hurts the poor, not the rich. So again, not a victory.

[Landwhale]

Why is it that a lot of intelligent people can't seem to accept that a good majority of what the mass media pushes through it's channels is manufactured?

It sucks, but unfortunately it also happens to be true that media is designed to condition us as a society. Whether it's to get you to buy a product or adopt a particular thought-process or belief, or to subscribe to a certain set of thought-processes and beliefs, deep rooted, invasive psychology is one of the most important tools in the creation of modern media. Certainly this is not an epiphany by any means, I'd hope no one wants to argue whether or not this can be acknowledged as fact.

If you can't grasp that, or think it's paranoia, fair enough. Don't bother reading on, but please don't respond with stupid flames or attempts at being what you think is witty, because I don't give a fuck to hear them. It'd be nice to see something other than conditioned, canned responses once in awhile.

I'm so sick of hearing "conspiracy theory" tossed around everytime someone tries to shed light on the fact that there ARE real live people that are responsible for designing and maintaining the manufactured systems of our societies, and that (like any other business) they plan things in advance, set up infrastructures, etc.

i.e. There are, in fact, people who for lack of better words, design, maintain, and control our national and global systems.

The problem is, when you make a statement like that, a lot of people's knee jerk response is to conjure up images of The Matrix or immediately discredit the person, eventually turning a potentially fruitful conversation into a emotional circle of futility.

For instance, I don't know about the rest of the country, but in Florida, pretty much all the major highways and roads have been equipped with 360 degree panning video cameras at every mile marker, effectively able to monitor the roads and surrounding areas a little TOO well.
In addition to this, there are now large white panels on almost every single road sign, one for each lane, that look remarkably similar to a device that would scan an RFID chip or other tracking mechanism.
Also, very recently, within just the past few weeks, virtually all of the major intersections of the common roads have these new bright blue lights and cameras that are supposedly just for catching people who run red lights.

The strange thing is, the majority of people have never even noticed anything besides the new lights and cameras at the intersections, and only because they are so bright and oppressive looking that it is impossible not to notice them.

When asked what people think these systems are for, no one seems to know.
The most common explanation I've heard is "that they are there to catch people speeding or running a red light". REALLY?

Let's assume this ridiculous notion that this level of surveillance was to catch people committing traffic infractions is true for a moment, if nothing else for shits and giggles. Wouldn't a system like this be FAR more effective than cops on the side of the road with a radar gun? Wouldn't this serve to decrease the need for police presence for traffic infractions? Why are there more cops than ever out on the roads?

I suppose the RFID chips in the new U.S. Passports are just there for the hell of it.
Same goes for the R.E.A.L. id act, all just a hoax, such a HUGE hoax in fact, that those crazy conspiracy theorists passed it into law so they could keep up their delusions.

For fuck's sake, it's like no one has any sense at all, like watching a house being slowly built over the years, right across the street, even talking with the workers who are building it, but for some reason no one will believe it's a house until it's finished and they walk into it. And if anyone goes in there to look at the house before it's finished, they MUST just be crazy kids up to no good, ruining our perfect little community.

There goes the neighborhood.

[forge]

For fuck's sake, it's like no one has any sense at all, like watching a house being slowly built over the years, right across the street, even talking with the workers who are building it, but for some reason no one will believe it's a house until it's finished and they walk into it. And if anyone goes in there to look at the house before it's finished, they MUST just be crazy kids up to no good, ruining our perfect little community.

There goes the neighborhood.

actually I think it's more because people feel totally impotent and like we really can't do anything about it as your upcoming election will also plainly illustrate

the idealist in me wants to believe Obama is like some kind of MLK type figure who will unite Americans and lead them to a bright future, but the cynic in me feels that he will serve the corporate interests just like anyone

so there is no choice

Maybe all those people ringing their congressmen to say no and hell no really did have an effect, I'd love to hope so, but I won't be surprised if by the end of the week there is another vote with a very slight change and it gets passed - there has to be more going on here

[elxicano]

Why is it that a lot of intelligent people can't seem to accept that a good majority of what the mass media pushes through it's channels is manufactured?

It sucks, but unfortunately it also happens to be true that media is designed to condition us as a society. Whether it's to get you to buy a product or adopt a particular thought-process or belief, or to subscribe to a certain set of thought-processes and beliefs, deep rooted, invasive psychology is one of the most important tools in the creation of modern media. Certainly this is not an epiphany by any means, I'd hope no one wants to argue whether or not this can be acknowledged as fact.

If you can't grasp that, or think it's paranoia, fair enough. Don't bother reading on, but please don't respond with stupid flames or attempts at being what you think is witty, because I don't give a fuck to hear them. It'd be nice to see something other than conditioned, canned responses once in awhile.

I'm so sick of hearing "conspiracy theory" tossed around everytime someone tries to shed light on the fact that there ARE real live people that are responsible for designing and maintaining the manufactured systems of our societies, and that (like any other business) they plan things in advance, set up infrastructures, etc.

i.e. There are, in fact, people who for lack of better words, design, maintain, and control our national and global systems.

The problem is, when you make a statement like that, a lot of people's knee jerk response is to conjure up images of The Matrix or immediately discredit the person, eventually turning a potentially fruitful conversation into a emotional circle of futility.

For instance, I don't know about the rest of the country, but in Florida, pretty much all the major highways and roads have been equipped with 360 degree panning video cameras at every mile marker, effectively able to monitor the roads and surrounding areas a little TOO well.
In addition to this, there are now large white panels on almost every single road sign, one for each lane, that look remarkably similar to a device that would scan an RFID chip or other tracking mechanism.
Also, very recently, within just the past few weeks, virtually all of the major intersections of the common roads have these new bright blue lights and cameras that are supposedly just for catching people who run red lights.

The strange thing is, the majority of people have never even noticed anything besides the new lights and cameras at the intersections, and only because they are so bright and oppressive looking that it is impossible not to notice them.

When asked what people think these systems are for, no one seems to know.
The most common explanation I've heard is "that they are there to catch people speeding or running a red light". REALLY?

Let's assume this ridiculous notion that this level of surveillance was to catch people committing traffic infractions is true for a moment, if nothing else for shits and giggles. Wouldn't a system like this be FAR more effective than cops on the side of the road with a radar gun? Wouldn't this serve to decrease the need for police presence for traffic infractions? Why are there more cops than ever out on the roads?

I suppose the RFID chips in the new U.S. Passports are just there for the hell of it.
Same goes for the R.E.A.L. id act, all just a hoax, such a HUGE hoax in fact, that those crazy conspiracy theorists passed it into law so they could keep up their delusions.

For fuck's sake, it's like no one has any sense at all, like watching a house being slowly built over the years, right across the street, even talking with the workers who are building it, but for some reason no one will believe it's a house until it's finished and they walk into it. And if anyone goes in there to look at the house before it's finished, they MUST just be crazy kids up to no good, ruining our perfect little community.

There goes the neighborhood.

Are you sure this is the right thread for this?

Many people notice this, but other than commenting on them, there's not a whole lot to do unless you can get yourself into government and champion the rights of the people.

The people who would be affected most are the ones that are struggling right now and are more concerned about getting meals to their families and then about a chip sensor they still don't understand.

Fix the economy and provide more opportunity and more people will focus on these things.

Otherwise, I can guarantee you that you will not lead a successful revolt to dismantle these devices here or anywhere else in the country.

I'm just saying... you're not exactly apart of the solution here and have yet to provide anything that can considered a step forward to creating positive change.

...not being witty and trying to put you down, but am hoping you can be more constructing and put things in a larger perspective so you can actually do something positive.

[Machinesworking]

'does any one really know?' - honestly? probably not to any great degree of certainty but the first step has got to be to get trading going again, which really is/was relying on the bailout - everything else, including the politics, will follow. I just don't think this is a time for political fucking about, just get in, get the job done and get out. Only time will time I guess, but I think with the bail-out not happening anything can happen now, at least you can tell your children/grandchildren the full story.

This is why most people I know don't agree with this reasoning IMO. We're asked to bail out a system that's failing to prevent that system from failing, which of course it already has!? otherwise we wouldn't be needing to prop it up? Oh, and we're given no guarantee from what I can tell that the bail out will not help the very people who are causing this global economic crisis with their greediness. In fact it's pretty much certain it will to a degree, and this is supposed to be good?

Something has to change, and propping up a dying system is no way to change it IMO. I understand why people don't want problems and want things to be the same etc. but what exactly about this bail out points towards any semblance of establishing some sort of system that doesn't spontaneously combust and threaten global collapse? I mean think about how ridiculous that is on a real tangible level??? We supposedly all produce goods and services, and none of that has gone down, it's just that some chumps have once again overvalued their own worth on paper, and sold items to others at cute rates to make a quick buck.
All I can think of is ENRON, another group of GWB pals who eventually went bankrupt, but this time the people are even deeper entrenched.

I'm sure I'm off on a lot of this, but understand that a lot of people feel that this is exactly what's going on, and are fucking sick of propping up greedy bastards that sell people who don't have the resources goods they cannot afford.

[elxicano]

For fuck's sake, it's like no one has any sense at all, like watching a house being slowly built over the years, right across the street, even talking with the workers who are building it, but for some reason no one will believe it's a house until it's finished and they walk into it. And if anyone goes in there to look at the house before it's finished, they MUST just be crazy kids up to no good, ruining our perfect little community.

There goes the neighborhood.

actually I think it's more because people feel totally impotent and like we really can't do anything about it as your upcoming election will also plainly illustrate

the idealist in me wants to believe Obama is like some kind of MLK type figure who will unite Americans and lead them to a bright future, but the cynic in me feels that he will serve the corporate interests just like anyone

so there is no choice

Maybe all those people ringing their congressmen to say no and hell no really did have an effect, I'd love to hope so, but I won't be surprised if by the end of the week there is another vote with a very slight change and it gets passed - there has to be more going on here

Forge,

Unfortunately you are right that he will serve big corporations to a degree, which we are all uncertain of, but "hope" will be in a different manor than over the last 8 years.

I personally don't see him as MLK, but I can say that under democratic leadership there is more funding for programs that support the disadvantaged. This is why I do not want another republican led nation... their policies view these programs as handouts that steal from the wealthy.

[forge]

thing is - what do people really mean when they talk about global collapse? I mean any economic disaster that has ever happened - people recover, people still live their lives - what is going to happen?

In some ways this makes me feel like I have been preparing by learning to live on very little because it means I probably wont really notice - I'm used to not having much money, I have no debt and no mortgage so nothing will change for me

the people who are panicking maybe need to think about what it is they are most afraid to lose, and ask themselves if on their death beds they will think about those things as defining their time on Earth

/2c (devalued to .0000000002c)

[forge]

For fuck's sake, it's like no one has any sense at all, like watching a house being slowly built over the years, right across the street, even talking with the workers who are building it, but for some reason no one will believe it's a house until it's finished and they walk into it. And if anyone goes in there to look at the house before it's finished, they MUST just be crazy kids up to no good, ruining our perfect little community.

There goes the neighborhood.

actually I think it's more because people feel totally impotent and like we really can't do anything about it as your upcoming election will also plainly illustrate

the idealist in me wants to believe Obama is like some kind of MLK type figure who will unite Americans and lead them to a bright future, but the cynic in me feels that he will serve the corporate interests just like anyone

so there is no choice

Maybe all those people ringing their congressmen to say no and hell no really did have an effect, I'd love to hope so, but I won't be surprised if by the end of the week there is another vote with a very slight change and it gets passed - there has to be more going on here

Forge,

Unfortunately you are right that he will serve big corporations to a degree, which we are all uncertain of, but "hope" will be in a different manor than over the last 8 years.

I personally don't see him as MLK, but I can say that under democratic leadership there is more funding for programs that support the disadvantaged. This is why I do not want another republican led nation... their policies view these programs as handouts that steal from the wealthy.

I agree with that and still want him to win, I just think the system is so rotten now it's hard to recover without at least letting these bastards go bankrupt - those videos Deva linked raise some good points - the world will recover

[silicon1138]

DEMOCRACY STILL WORKS?

what does any of this have to do with Democracy?
Do you think the people on the street had something to do with this being rejected?

[elxicano]

thing is - what do people really mean when they talk about global collapse? I mean any economic disaster that has ever happened - people recover, people still live their lives - what is going to happen?

In some ways this makes me feel like I have been preparing by learning to live on very little because it means I probably wont really notice - I'm used to not having much money, I have no debt and no mortgage so nothing will change for me

the people who are panicking maybe need to think about what it is they are most afraid to lose, and ask themselves if on their death beds they will think about those things as defining their time on Earth

/2c (devalued to .0000000002c)

You mean the "general" population has recovered...

I do understand what you are saying, but there's a lot of people who needlessly suffered through any economic collapse, except the ones that have caused it.

Not everyone is in a "life-as-usual" position and that's not necessarily because the have a mortgage or some other payments to lose.

Many companies are downsizing and will continue to reduce employees leaving far too many without jobs that need them.

I'm not talking about the population that can just go back home and move in with mommy and daddy, I'm talking about those with children, but very little education. Those that don't have a lot of opportunity to find different work or the ability to reinvent themselves in a new industry.

These are the people who will be affected the worst and its these people we should be most concerned about saving.

[elxicano]

[quote="forge"

I agree with that and still want him to win, I just think the system is so rotten now it's hard to recover without at least letting these bastards go bankrupt - those videos Deva linked raise some good points - the world will recover[/quote]


The world will recover, but again... our concern should not be about the rich, but instead about the poor.

We're supposed to have learned something from past economic collapses so we don't repeat those mistakes.

Even if they do become bankrupt, all it means is that the courts protect the bankrupt companies from debt collectors... it doesn't mean they will be prosecuted for what they've caused.

Again, this is why I say this bill not being passed is not a victory in any way.

There will be a bill of some kind and we are in need of one being passed so we don't hurt the poor more than they already are. We can still prosecute those responsible and save the economy... this is the best solution, instead of letting it fail only to watch the greedy bastards walk free.