Ableton/Serato Partnership

[chrysalis33rpm]

Excuse my ignorance on this one, but if you are using a piece of software that syncs songs together perfectly on it's own why on earth do you need to use encoded vinyl or CDs? Is this a "it looks cool" thing?

-to play songs together you dont have time to or dont want to warp
-to scratch clips or whole arrangements in Live
-to make micro adjustments to the groove between 2 clips via a spinning platter
-the sexy feel of vinyl

oh, and you're right, it does look cool.

[meltedstone]

Think I'm going to hold off buying anything until NAMM 09 , maybe something will have happened by then .

maybe not and I'll go for Traktor , who know's

...Ableton & Serato that's who !!, why don't these company's do like Apple and keep it under wraps till release day instead of announcing things that may very well be years before they go on general sale ???

makes them look a little bit silly IMHO

ms.

[beats me]

Excuse my ignorance on this one, but if you are using a piece of software that syncs songs together perfectly on it's own why on earth do you need to use encoded vinyl or CDs? Is this a "it looks cool" thing?

-to play songs together you dont have time to or dont want to warp
-to scratch clips or whole arrangements in Live
-to make micro adjustments to the groove between 2 clips via a spinning platter
-the sexy feel of vinyl

oh, and you're right, it does look cool.

I understand about the technical aspects you mentioned but there are other options to make adjustments. I think it's largely a showmanship thing. I'm not completely arguing the point because I want jog wheels on a controller for Traktor but I think this is vinyl DJ's last grasp at holding on.

Man, I couldn't tell you the last time I saw a DJ scratch at a gig for anything longer than a quick zip.

[Hidden Driveways]

Excuse my ignorance on this one, but if you are using a piece of software that syncs songs together perfectly on it's own why on earth do you need to use encoded vinyl or CDs? Is this a "it looks cool" thing?

I rarely play songs that are "straight" beats + BPMs. I do play them, but I get really bored if the beat is all utts utts utts uttts. When Serableton comes out, I won't be warping files for beat matching. I might warp something to make it sound interesting, but not for automatic beat matching.

I like mixing with my hands. I like doing things that are difficult + challengeing. Using auto beat matching seems like it would be boring to me.

This doesn't answer your question at all, but I said it anyway simply for the joy of making a post.

[beats me]

Beat matching is a great skill to have and as there is currently no software that will correctly guess the BPM and alignment every time no matter what you throw at it, it's a great backup skill to have if nothing else.

But saying it's boring without doing that is completely ignoring the creative freedom and possibilities when that is something you don't have to worry about. I'd even go as far as saying with some people (not all!) that they use beat matching as a crutch to keep things safe. You're only as bored as you let yourself be.

[chrysalis33rpm]

Excuse my ignorance on this one, but if you are using a piece of software that syncs songs together perfectly on it's own why on earth do you need to use encoded vinyl or CDs? Is this a "it looks cool" thing?

-to play songs together you dont have time to or dont want to warp
-to scratch clips or whole arrangements in Live
-to make micro adjustments to the groove between 2 clips via a spinning platter
-the sexy feel of vinyl

oh, and you're right, it does look cool.

I understand about the technical aspects you mentioned but there are other options to make adjustments. I think it's largely a showmanship thing. I'm not completely arguing the point because I want jog wheels on a controller for Traktor but I think this is vinyl DJ's last grasp at holding on.

Man, I couldn't tell you the last time I saw a DJ scratch at a gig for anything longer than a quick zip.

Its far more than a technical aspect to me- its a design aspect, a physical interface, a way of interacting directly with the software and music. Some people want a lemur to touch their music- i want a large spinning platter with a slip mat. The resistance of the record is very important- its not at all a showmanship thing for me. The feel is essential to me in a controlller, that way it begins to approach something like a saxophone or guitar- the exact pressure and angle of the way you touch it makes a difference.

As far as 'other options' to making these kind of adjustments, well AFAIK there is really one other option at the clip level, and one at the global level, neither of which is fully satisfactory:

The first (clip level) involves mapping an encoder to clip nudge, which then can nudge the playback point of the clip according to global/clip quantize. Drawback N°1: works only on selected clip (forget beat juggling, is also fiddly as you have to navigate around to find the proper clip) N°2: only works for micro adjustments with the quantize set to none, which is not where one typically works, meaning that you must set and then reset the quantize at either global or clip level N°3: is not pressure sensitive.

The second (global level) is much better implemented in Live, and has only one principal drawback- that the global tempo nudge buttons are not pressure sensitive (I'm not sure how jogging the global playback position works in Live as I haven't really needed it yet)

And finally, as you stated, I will never 100% trust a piece of software to do my beatmatching and it's ideal to be able to f*ck the beats up to my satisfaction at any time- not determined by the software or a previous interpretation of correct beat structure (warping).

Anyway, look- you state effectively that it's superficial that we want vinyl control in Live (just for showmanship). I say, i came up in that era, is it not natural that I have a physical/emotional connection to a way of working? Don't all people evolve different preferences for their tools? Live is very exciting because it is an open system- to me this is one more way of extending that potential. Whether it's useful or not to you personally is besides the point.

And because you haven't seen a DJ scratching lately must mean that it's a dead art and there's no reason to support it...sorry, what? Maybe we need to make the tools better so it remains in the loop.

Another way of saying what I'm trying to get at is that right now Live is very good for "working with the head" - and i want it to get better for "working with the hands".

[AlexG]

Or it could just be to do with what Serato started off doing before they got into bed with Stanton and took on Final Scratch with Rane to make Serato Scratch Live...

http://www.serato.com/pitchntime-pro


Or better still.... BOTH!

[beats me]

-to play songs together you dont have time to or dont want to warp
-to scratch clips or whole arrangements in Live
-to make micro adjustments to the groove between 2 clips via a spinning platter
-the sexy feel of vinyl

oh, and you're right, it does look cool.

I understand about the technical aspects you mentioned but there are other options to make adjustments. I think it's largely a showmanship thing. I'm not completely arguing the point because I want jog wheels on a controller for Traktor but I think this is vinyl DJ's last grasp at holding on.

Man, I couldn't tell you the last time I saw a DJ scratch at a gig for anything longer than a quick zip.

Its far more than a technical aspect to me- its a design aspect, a physical interface, a way of interacting directly with the software and music. Some people want a lemur to touch their music- i want a large spinning platter with a slip mat. The resistance of the record is very important- its not at all a showmanship thing for me. The feel is essential to me in a controlller, that way it begins to approach something like a saxophone or guitar- the exact pressure and angle of the way you touch it makes a difference.

As far as 'other options' to making these kind of adjustments, well AFAIK there is really one other option at the clip level, and one at the global level, neither of which is fully satisfactory:

The first (clip level) involves mapping an encoder to clip nudge, which then can nudge the playback point of the clip according to global/clip quantize. Drawback N°1: works only on selected clip (forget beat juggling, is also fiddly as you have to navigate around to find the proper clip) N°2: only works for micro adjustments with the quantize set to none, which is not where one typically works, meaning that you must set and then reset the quantize at either global or clip level N°3: is not pressure sensitive.

The second (global level) is much better implemented in Live, and has only one principal drawback- that the global tempo nudge buttons are not pressure sensitive (I'm not sure how jogging the global playback position works in Live as I haven't really needed it yet)

And finally, as you stated, I will never 100% trust a piece of software to do my beatmatching and it's ideal to be able to f*ck the beats up to my satisfaction at any time- not determined by the software or a previous interpretation of correct beat structure (warping).

Anyway, look- you state effectively that it's superficial that we want vinyl control in Live (just for showmanship). I say, i came up in that era, is it not natural that I have a physical/emotional connection to a way of working? Don't all people evolve different preferences for their tools? Live is very exciting because it is an open system- to me this is one more way of extending that potential. Whether it's useful or not to you personally is besides the point.

And because you haven't seen a DJ scratching lately must mean that it's a dead art and there's no reason to support it...sorry, what? Maybe we need to make the tools better so it remains in the loop.

Another way of saying what I'm trying to get at is that right now Live is very good for "working with the head" - and i want it to get better for "working with the hands".

Fully understood. I guess in some ways it would be like removing strings off a guitar, which I think actually has been done but I don't know ho good it works. I guess that would be my vinyl and "just because you can doesn't mean you should".

Your argument also pointed out that maybe this Ableton/Serato collab would be a good thing, because when I was talking about alternative software adjustments I was talking about Traktor and other DJ specific software. For a minute there I forgot we were even talking about Live. As it sits now, and probably by my own preference, I don't really see Live as a good DJing option because there is too much prep. So I guess in a way I'm arguing with myself because there are even some things I can't let go of or advance towards.

You're saying the feel of vinyl is your preference and that's a point that really shouldn't be debated. My angle, which I'm sure I didn't mention, was more from the standpoint of people frowning upon you for not using some kind of tangible medium. I think I'm still having flashbacks to when I was spinning CDs, the new technology at the time, and would get into stupid arguments that almost turned to violence with vinyl DJs. So there's probably still a minor part of me going "That's right. Die! Die! Die!" Man, do I need to let that go already.

And I also need to remind myself that other than places like this and maybe in the booth itself most people don't really give s shit what you use to keep them on the floor.

[SubFunk]

Or it could just be to do with what Serato started off doing before they got into bed with Stanton and took on Final Scratch with Rane to make Serato Scratch Live...

http://www.serato.com/pitchntime-pro


Or better still.... BOTH!

he he, good point... they hopefully fix the important stuff first before adding fancy nonsense.

exactly using the pitch n' time algo to make warping better. for example.

i know i am probably somehow all on my own on this, but i will say it again and again...

i don't need another DJ software...
i don't need another DAW...

but i do need and want a dead, dead stable with a super simple GUI and no cluttered windows, containing superb sounding plugs, with excellent warping for all even super difficult material
jam / live play apps. with LOWERED CPU strain.
instead of added function wank.

for me they hopefully concentrate on the inner quality, like mentioned: sound quality (for warping), stability, cpu strain, accurate midi timing, etc. then on an overload of rubbish functions.

so i can get back to the value of the music and jam in clip heaven, instead of bloating around with functions. other apps give me already.

i know most of you want to do all in one apps, rubbish!!!, if you need to make a house move transport you are not going to use your porsche, do you?

p.s. and i see ableton as the sportscar under audio apps, because it is the most fun to use

[BaronVonAbelDong]

he he, good point... they hopefully fix the important stuff first before adding fancy nonsense.

exactly using the pitch n' time algo to make warping better. for example.

i know i am probably somehow all on my own on this, but i will say it again and again...

i don't need another DJ software...
i don't need another DAW...

but i do need and want a dead, dead stable with a super simple GUI and no cluttered windows, containing superb sounding plugs, with excellent warping for all even super difficult material
jam / live play apps. with LOWERED CPU strain.
instead of added function wank.

for me they hopefully concentrate on the inner quality, like mentioned: sound quality (for warping), stability, cpu strain, accurate midi timing, etc. then on an overload of rubbish functions.

so i can get back to the value of the music and jam in clip heaven, instead of bloating around with functions. other apps give me already.

i know most of you want to do all in one apps, rubbish!!!, if you need to make a house move transport you are not going to use your porsche, do you?

p.s. and i see ableton as the sportscar under audio apps, because it is the most fun to use

+1
not on your own mate...

[Patch]

I'll be devastated if the announcement is ONLY that a pitch n' time style algo replaces complex warping. I would expect this as a GIVEN if Ableton team up with Serato, WE WANT VINYL CONTROL!!!

[Khazul]

Beat matching is a great skill to have and as there is currently no software that will correctly guess the BPM and alignment every time no matter what you throw at it, it's a great backup skill to have if nothing else.

Very true - allways having to either pre-align the beat grid, or tweak on the fly with traktor - I have never used serato, so I dont know if that is any better. Live doesnt fair any better either.

Actually I kind of prefer to drop on cue without sync enabled as when sync is on in traktor, it wants to sync to its wrong idea of where the beat peak is, and often delays by a beat to do so - grrr!

Because of this - a jog control is a must, but actually using a CDJ or vinyl platter for the job is complete overkill and ore hassle than its worth.

Where control from CDJ/Vinyl really comes into its own is if you like to scratch cue (or whatever people call it) - ie scratch the deck back and forth to drop exactly in sync.

I have yet to find a controller that can accurate let you do that with some scratch drift - VCI-100 is pretty close, but still nothing like a phsyical deck.

But saying it's boring without doing that is completely ignoring the creative freedom and possibilities when that is something you don't have to worry about. I'd even go as far as saying with some people (not all!) that they use beat matching as a crutch to keep things safe. You're only as bored as you let yourself be.

The age old argument against software based DJs (whether Live or Traktor/Serato) etc - but that is kind of the point of it isnt use the time you gain to something that is creative and damn near impossible to do on a phsyical deck - even a CDJ.

[chrysalis33rpm]

Fully understood. I guess in some ways it would be like removing strings off a guitar, which I think actually has been done but I don't know ho good it works. I guess that would be my vinyl and "just because you can doesn't mean you should".

Your argument also pointed out that maybe this Ableton/Serato collab would be a good thing, because when I was talking about alternative software adjustments I was talking about Traktor and other DJ specific software. For a minute there I forgot we were even talking about Live. As it sits now, and probably by my own preference, I don't really see Live as a good DJing option because there is too much prep. So I guess in a way I'm arguing with myself because there are even some things I can't let go of or advance towards.

You're saying the feel of vinyl is your preference and that's a point that really shouldn't be debated. My angle, which I'm sure I didn't mention, was more from the standpoint of people frowning upon you for not using some kind of tangible medium. I think I'm still having flashbacks to when I was spinning CDs, the new technology at the time, and would get into stupid arguments that almost turned to violence with vinyl DJs. So there's probably still a minor part of me going "That's right. Die! Die! Die!" Man, do I need to let that go already.

And I also need to remind myself that other than places like this and maybe in the booth itself most people don't really give s shit what you use to keep them on the floor.

Yeah, well, I was a snob vinyl DJ and I learned to let that go and love the vinyl but love the music more, regardless of the format. A friend of mine in SF taught me that, she would show up to a party with two fucking walkman-style CD players and she would ROCK the house just because she loved the music she played and knew how to give the crowd, especially the ladies, what they wanted. Unable to beatmatch, did not matter one bit. This caused me to severely question what was important in DJing.

And Ableton is a continuation of that, but one thing I have learned is that having a bodily involvement with the music (characterized by major muscle groups), as opposed to an intellectual involvement (characterized by fine motor skills- ie mousing) makes a hell of a difference to my own experience of a record and by extension to my listeners as well.

I think its really exciting that we're not using a tangible medium- how tangible is music, anyway? I just want to keep the tradition alive- for I have worshiped at the altar of records when a record was something, and I found it good.

But yeah, i am not super excited about DJing with Live right now, I def view it as a production and remix platform, but the amazing thing about it is how its keeps bringing those two points closer....

[chrysalis33rpm]

So I had this idea about warping and vinyl control, I think its kind of radical, maybe unworkable I don't know. It goes like this:

Basically a DJ beatmatching 2 records is warping in real time, right? He aligns them and sets their speed properly, throws the record, and the beat structures of the two records compliment one another. Any fluctuations in the beat structure of a record, due to a live band, hardware imperfections, user error, etc., are easily compensated for during the playback of the record by a slight tweak on the platter.

Well, if the movements of that control vinyl were recorded as movements of the beat grid - ie, as warp markers -, would this not be a way to warp a track in Ableton in real time- (and then have it play back that way)? This would mean that you could warp a clip by traditional vinyl beatmatching to a click track or a drum loop, making the process of warping your tracks so damn much more fun.

Surely an idea of very little interest except to those who already enjoy beatmatching records- but the potential is rather deep, I believe.

[beats me]

So I had this idea about warping and vinyl control, I think its kind of radical, maybe unworkable I don't know. It goes like this:

Basically a DJ beatmatching 2 records is warping in real time, right? He aligns them and sets their speed properly, throws the record, and the beat structures of the two records compliment one another. Any fluctuations in the beat structure of a record, due to a live band, hardware imperfections, user error, etc., are easily compensated for during the playback of the record by a slight tweak on the platter.

Well, if the movements of that control vinyl were recorded as movements of the beat grid - ie, as warp markers -, would this not be a way to warp a track in Ableton in real time- (and then have it play back that way)? This would mean that you could warp a clip by traditional vinyl beatmatching to a click track or a drum loop, making the process of warping your tracks so damn much more fun.

Surely an idea of very little interest except to those who already enjoy beatmatching records- but the potential is rather deep, I believe.

Damn, that's a fantastic idea.

Although I would say that would be for the well skilled. It has potential to make things worse for those people who do their corrections like a truck driver hitting black ice on the freeway.

Still great as an option.