Ban Timur/Crash?

[Khazul]

I think I now understand your views and your place in this world - rather closed and accepting, little or no desire to move forwazrd - ie mr average.

Do you really think anything you say will be took seriously by anybody you talk to that way?

You made this all about you, the subject is lost in your rhetoric and spiteful hate filled little jabs. The internet is filled with men like this, who waste everybody's time with their endless jabs aimed at nothing more that flame wars.
Do you want to be that man?

I'll give your the benefit of the doubt then - perhaps just a UK/US difference in perceptions - but everything you said came over as assumption laden pokes as well - ie - enough to label you an ignorant twat in my book, as you evidently think too of me, otherwise you wouldnt have started this.

[Machinesworking]

I think I now understand your views and your place in this world - rather closed and accepting, little or no desire to move forwazrd - ie mr average.

Do you really think anything you say will be took seriously by anybody you talk to that way?

You made this all about you, the subject is lost in your rhetoric and spiteful hate filled little jabs. The internet is filled with men like this, who waste everybody's time with their endless jabs aimed at nothing more that flame wars.
Do you want to be that man?

I'll give your the benefit of the doubt then - perhaps just a UK/US difference in perceptions - but everything you said came over as assumption laden pokes as well - ie - enough to label you an ignorant twat in my book, as you evidently think too of me, otherwise you wouldnt have started this.

OK well, realize I almost never engage in a debate in order to make the other person look bad, it's mainly to learn, and maybe to teach, hopefully both if I've learned anything. Honestly read what I wrote, I never assumed anything about you. Saying that pros use more than two DAWs because SOP is 95% stability instead of 100% because of competitiveness/new features etc. in no way says you're not a 'pro'. It does say that if you are, and using only one DAW, you're not doing what most do, and that's about all it says.

Anyway, my point is, and I'm still not sure what yours is?, (not a jab, just not clear yet), that unless something drastic happens in the industry, and with the target audience for the product (my guess 17-26 yo) DAWs will always push far too hard for new features, and break old ones.
The solution to me is to not be tied to one DAW entirely, to be flexible.
What you seem to be saying is that through consumer advocacy we should be able to force companies to extinguish all major bugs before they release an update etc.

It's possible I guess, but so far none have really done that. I hate saying it, but Logic pre Apple was pretty much rock solid, though VST implementation on the Mac version wasn't, due probably to crappy VSTs more than Logic. Emagic also were at a position financially where Apple could buy them, same with Steinberg. So one company has tons of bugs and gets sold to Pinicole [sic?] and the other has none really, but gets sold to Apple.
While Cakewalk and MOTU remain unsold, and release DAWs with most major bugs fixed... it seems to me the middle ground wins.

Not trying to bust holes in your thinking really, just saying this is what comes to mind, that at this point in time, I don't really see how to save the industry from this. It's possible Ableton listen to this stuff from us, and do something, it's also possible that we waste hours of their time getting them to explain themselves. I don't know?

[Crash]

I think I now understand your views and your place in this world - rather closed and accepting, little or no desire to move forwazrd - ie mr average.

Do you really think anything you say will be took seriously by anybody you talk to that way?

You made this all about you, the subject is lost in your rhetoric and spiteful hate filled little jabs. The internet is filled with men like this, who waste everybody's time with their endless jabs aimed at nothing more that flame wars.
Do you want to be that man?

I'll give your the benefit of the doubt then - perhaps just a UK/US difference in perceptions - but everything you said came over as assumption laden pokes as well - ie - enough to label you an ignorant twat in my book, as you evidently think too of me, otherwise you wouldnt have started this.

I think we finally reach the conclusion of this and the other ridiculous threads. If this were a challenge then I think Crumhorn has won:

Some come across as reasonable and balanced, some argumentative but likeable, some with aspects of megalomania or delusions of grandeur, some paranoid conspiracy theorists and some rather unpleasant people who think that common standards of decency don't apply to them.

Anyone in here who thinks to know the others without ever having met them in person or even engaged in a decent talk but only learned about through the window of this artificial/virtual media needs a reality check!

You could pick out just anyone here and start flaming them, it wouldn't make so much of a difference. Here is a quote from my lady about what's going on:

But that's witchburning!?!

My answer: Yeah, people love doing it since the stone-ages.

[Poster]

Anyone in here who thinks to know the others without ever having met them in person or even engaged in a decent talk but only learned about through the window of this artificial/virtual media needs a reality check!

ermm.. so, just like how you think to know the Support guys.. whom you've never met..

[last man on earth]

in any case the polls state:

No Timur shouldn't be banned, but he shouldn't make technical posts, either.

I would say, and this is where it seems that a lot of people have issue, is that your technical posts proceed from the technical to the non-technical and entirely subjective opinion of Ableton's customer service...opinions and theories are just that when concerning science and math unless they are proven outright with fact and equation, on top of which time is a factor when considering what makes up the frustration part of your opinion - some things cannot be remedied immediately, and that remedy could also cause problems in other areas, hence the need for testing and development while maintaining the security of the product...in other words, improvements take time.

When you compile all of that with the inherent imperfection in all human creations, you come up with a situation for which the only resolve is patience and understanding.

Would anyone disagree with that in a reasonable manner?

[hoffman2k]

Do you really think anything you say will be took seriously by anybody you talk to that way?

You made this all about you, the subject is lost in your rhetoric and spiteful hate filled little jabs. The internet is filled with men like this, who waste everybody's time with their endless jabs aimed at nothing more that flame wars.
Do you want to be that man?

I'll give your the benefit of the doubt then - perhaps just a UK/US difference in perceptions - but everything you said came over as assumption laden pokes as well - ie - enough to label you an ignorant twat in my book, as you evidently think too of me, otherwise you wouldnt have started this.

I think we finally reach the conclusion of this and the other ridiculous threads. If this were a challenge then I think Crumhorn has won:

Some come across as reasonable and balanced, some argumentative but likeable, some with aspects of megalomania or delusions of grandeur, some paranoid conspiracy theorists and some rather unpleasant people who think that common standards of decency don't apply to them.

Anyone in here who thinks to know the others without ever having met them in person or even engaged in a decent talk but only learned about through the window of this artificial/virtual media needs a reality check!

You could pick out just anyone here and start flaming them, it wouldn't make so much of a difference. Here is a quote from my lady about what's going on:

But that's witchburning!?!

My answer: Yeah, people love doing it since the stone-ages.

You're arguing with yourself and an alter ego now? Brilliant!!!

Stop playing the victim. You know what you're doing is wrong. You even have to hold a poll because you're "not quit sure". Yeah right.. Just making a new thread cause I tore you a new one in the other threads.
A witch curses others and steals children.. Or was that trolls.. Bugger, i'm mixing up my mythology with the plot of an Ernest movie. Have you tried milk?

Do you really want to end this? I'll give you a list of steps like I were typing a bug report:

- Make a list of your actual bugs

- Choose 1 bug you can reproduce 100% of the times.

- Post the steps in a list form similar to this. Just post the actions required for each step. Nothing less and definitely nothing more.

- Try addressing Live users instead of just support staff, because the support staff are essentially Live users.

Here is what will happen: If your list is simple enough and this bug is actually present in Live on every system (Xp, Vista and Osx), somebody will reproduce it.
In my personal case, every bug I can reproduce is one I report each and every single beta version. And a lot of the times, I don't get a reply or a confirmation.
Other times, they find the bug and literally fix it within a day.

Its easy to pile up all the negative experiences. And its even easier to forget the positive experiences.
So drop the act.. We all got bad experiences. Before you even knew about Live, Poster and I suffered with about 10-20 bugs that were exclusive to the system we were using. Which was a specific model of G5 powermac.
You think this vista shit is unique?
Ableton IS going to solve as much Vista bugs as they can. They're not going to rewrite Live to take advantages of Vista because Windows 7 is already a fact.
The same thing happened with us Mac users before Ableton had to do the UB rewrite. They even charged intel users to use 5.2 (so did almost every other software company)
Name one single Audio software manufacturer that has done a rewrite for Vista while supporting an Osx version of their DAW!

Suck it up. Drop the act and if you really care about improving Live: Make simple bug reports.

If the end goal is to get somebody to reproduce a bug, than what is the difference between an accurate list of steps and whatever the hell you call your bug reports?

[hoffman2k]

Anyone in here who thinks to know the others without ever having met them in person or even engaged in a decent talk but only learned about through the window of this artificial/virtual media needs a reality check!

ermm.. so, just like how you think to know the Support guys.. whom you've never met..

Still got the dual G5? How is it running Live these days?
Mine is long gone, but its still powering a studio somewhere..
Ah those were the days. Imagine if we went ballistic over those bugs..

[Machinesworking]

You're arguing with yourself and an alter ego now? Brilliant!!!

Even better, none of those quotes are from timur/crash. I have no idea how or why he did that?

[chrysalis33rpm]

^^^ and with that, the thread reached its apotheosis of weird and Timur/Crash was suddenly no more...

[Crash]

Anyone in here who thinks to know the others without ever having met them in person or even engaged in a decent talk but only learned about through the window of this artificial/virtual media needs a reality check!

ermm.. so, just like how you think to know the Support guys.. whom you've never met..

1. I have repeatedly revealed my oppinion that the Ableton Support guys seem like nice and friendly people who are mostly willing to help. But yes, that assumption is based on my restricted experience from communicating with them via mails and forum.

You and Forge maybe should have read one or the other post through before drawing conclusions...

2. Total count of using the words "seem/seemingly", "likely" and "probably": 560
Total count of using the word "obviously": 64
Total count of using "STFU": 0

[Tone Deft]

stfu

[Machinesworking]

Anyone in here who thinks to know the others without ever having met them in person or even engaged in a decent talk but only learned about through the window of this artificial/virtual media needs a reality check!

ermm.. so, just like how you think to know the Support guys.. whom you've never met..

1. I have repeatedly revealed my oppinion that the Ableton Support guys seem like nice and friendly people who are mostly willing to help. But yes, that assumption is based on my restricted experience from communicating with them via mails and forum.

You're forgetting all the allusions to their lack of real knowledge about whatever subject you're on about.

Which of course is the sort of assumptions you accuse people of making about you....

[Poster]

Still got the dual G5? How is it running Live these days?
Mine is long gone, but its still powering a studio somewhere..
Ah those were the days. Imagine if we went ballistic over those bugs..

aah yes.. the G5.. retired.. replaced by a MBP..
still own it though.. wanted to sell it but it's wothless, so a keeper.

[crumhorn]

Round and round and round it goes, where it stops nobody knows!

[Crash]

You're forgetting all the allusions to their lack of real knowledge about whatever subject you're on about.

My exact choice of words were more like this:

It's not my fault that Ableton staff feels offended by my ongoing struggle with their software. And I've got to live with the sarcastic replies since I called their support and quality assurance team unqualified to deal with complex issues. A personal oppinion that seems to be confirmed repeatedly. But, one gets what ones gives, so I'm not all irresponsible for that kind of communication.
...
My conclusion: Ableton Support (and probably their QA) are not qualified to handle complex issues.
...
Ableton Live = Cool and unique concepts (well, heavily inspired by old Tracker applications)

Ableton Developers = Probably working hard, but too few in numbers for Live`s codebase and release-plan. Too slow in maintainance because of that.

Ableton Quality Assurance = Do they have someone dedicated to QA at all? If so then think about looking for someone new or get him some help.

Ableton Support = Friendly and generally nice people. Try to help as good as they can. Problem is that "they can" seems to be limited to incomplex problems mostly and that they prefer losing you as a customer than admiting "Sorry, we acknowledge your problem as valid and would love to help, but we are Not ABLE TO offer a solution because of limited resourced." Most often used sentence: "We cannot reproduce that here."