Separating non-bass instruments in a busy mix

Kent_in_CO · Post by **Kent_in_CO** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:19 pm

What's your preferred method(s)?

The tunes I write tend to have a lot going on - for example, a pad in the background, a lead part, some vox and maybe guitar. Getting rid of a part often isn't an option, because I like the added complexity and depth.

But how do I keep each element clear and have a pleasing "wall of sound," rather than a wall of mush that screams "amateur production?" I know panning can help, but I'm thinking more in terms of dealing with overlapping frequencies.

How about the following approach? Is this effective?
- Find the most prominent frequencies on track A
- Give them a slight boost (or not, depending on how it sounds)
- Slightly CUT those same frequencies on other overlapping tracks, creating a "hole" for track A to pop through

I've googled and UTMFingSE - just curious how you all approach this.

Machinate · Post by **Machinate** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:52 pm

cut cut cut cut and cut.

And by saying that I mean: don't boost

A guitar part might sound utter CRAP when soloed after a judicious eq-ing, but in the mix a guitar part might work great as just a narrow frequency "strip".

evon · Post by **evon** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 7:04 pm

I must say that I haven't learnt the art yet myself. There is also the question of harmonics. If some frequencies are cut then it affects certain harmonics. There definately has to be some compromise. I beleive it always helps if the artist has a sound in mind that he is trying to acheive. This will dictate the decisions he takes.

Moody · Post by **Moody** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 7:17 pm

Time and Space are your friend.

jesQuick · Post by **jesQuick** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 8:02 pm

When you cut certain frequencies, others tend to become more audible...

Try it out, and remember to check your mix on as many speakers as you can come by.

Do a search on this forum. A lot of good info around here...

Moody · Post by **Moody** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 8:15 pm

Before cutting frequencies I would look at where you have laid these sounds in the stereo field. From there I would use a simple delay with small increments to give them their own space and then finally cutting back what may be necessary, if at all. Cutting frequencies can often have very negative affects on timbre and sonic presentation from the harmonics that are produced from sounds interacting; taking life out of the mix. Good Luck!

tw1nstates · Post by **tw1nstates** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:11 pm

get mixing withyour mind (book)

read it.

read it again,

apply all that he says,

Thank him for writing the best book on mixing audio ever.

You wont be asking these quesions anymore. . .

In the mean time go for panning first (sum to mono) before eqing.

Often stuff finds it's space without you doing much

CHARLIE! · Post by **CHARLIE!** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 12:07 am

Moody wrote:From there I would use a simple delay with small increments to give them their own space and then finally cutting back what may be necessary, if at all.

Can you explain that further?

Kent_in_CO · Post by **Kent_in_CO** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 12:17 am

Thanks for the tips. Moody, what's a good starting point for using the simple delay this way? I assume a short time setting - something like 10-30 ms? What about wet/dry and feedback?

I know that there's no one-size-fits all setting...just trying to get in the right ballpark.

nebulae · Post by **nebulae** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 12:21 am

Machinate has great advice. The trick with a good mix is always to separate frequencies as much as possible. This means that every track should have it's place in the mix without too much overlap with other tracks.

So a guitar part that sounds all full and wonderful by itself can EASILY drown out an entire mix.

While books are good for theory, there's only one way to learn good mixing - lotsa practice. Take your mixes and start applying EQs to every track, and use the filters so that you're only hearing the frequencies you're looking for. So a bass and a guitar, for example, should never be competing with one another for the same frequencies.

tw1nstates · Post by **tw1nstates** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 1:14 am

Hey Neb,

Have you read the book I am talking about?

The great thing about it is it really encourages you to listen and to think about what you are doing, rather than going do x when y occurs. .

Honestly I can't recommend it enough. . .

cbentley · Post by **cbentley** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 1:23 am

Loads of great advice in here but wihotu hearing what you're stuggling with it's tough do anything but throw ideas your way. So... I'll add my own 2 cents worth into the mix(pun intended). First and foremost go back to square one with your arrnagement and make sure that nothing is fighting for attnetion. Listen bottom to top and decide what's most important/least important to the listener. If you have a "wall of sound" thing going on then not every piece of it needs to be heard to make it effective. While the suggestions of panning will help sort out some spacial issues bear in mind the mix should hold up when summed to mono. In fact, monitoring it in mono will help you hear the top to bottom relationship much easier and will also reveal any phase issues with stereo tracks. Also don't forget to think about dimension. What needs to be forward and what can sink back a bit to make everything more 3d?

Study some of your favorite songs and throw an EQ over 'em. Use a steep high pass filter and start slowly sweeping upwards and notice where things start to fall off. Likewise, try a low pass filter and start sweeping down and listen to frequency relationships here as well.

Enough rambling out of me. Best of luck in your quest!

nebulae · Post by **nebulae** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 1:24 am

Sorry didn't mean to trash any books. Just saying that once you read an understand the theory, you gotto practice a lot.

Chang · Post by **Chang** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 1:45 am

cbentley wrote:Loads of great advice in here but wihotu hearing what you're stuggling with it's tough do anything but throw ideas your way. So... I'll add my own 2 cents worth into the mix(pun intended). First and foremost go back to square one with your arrnagement and make sure that nothing is fighting for attnetion. Listen bottom to top and decide what's most important/least important to the listener. If you have a "wall of sound" thing going on then not every piece of it needs to be heard to make it effective. While the suggestions of panning will help sort out some spacial issues bear in mind the mix should hold up when summed to mono. In fact, monitoring it in mono will help you hear the top to bottom relationship much easier and will also reveal any phase issues with stereo tracks. Also don't forget to think about dimension. What needs to be forward and what can sink back a bit to make everything more 3d?

Study some of your favorite songs and throw an EQ over 'em. Use a steep high pass filter and start slowly sweeping upwards and notice where things start to fall off. Likewise, try a low pass filter and start sweeping down and listen to frequency relationships here as well.

Enough rambling out of me. Best of luck in your quest!

+ 1

Good advice.

A common method in mixdown is to eq before you start panning anything, or to check your mix in mono all the time. When you pan hard left right you may think your getting more separation but can still be mess if eqs are not set right on different channels.

evon · Post by **evon** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 2:56 pm

nebulae wrote:Machinate has great advice. The trick with a good mix is always to separate frequencies as much as possible. This means that every track should have it's place in the mix without too much overlap with other tracks.

Somehow..my theory is that the trick is not in completely seperating frequencies, but in how they overlap , and which harmonics to remove, cut or enhance. Because, if you think about it most instruments share a great part of the sound spectrum. Their main differences are where there fundementals lay at the lower end and the extremity of the upper harmonics. So in my view there is not much really to play with.