Dithering!

Discuss music production with Ableton Live.
Tone Deft
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Re: Dithering!

Post by Tone Deft » Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:00 pm

evon wrote:
solacerodgers wrote:
djsynchro wrote:Analogue dither sounds warmer than digital :twisted:
I hope this is a joke as analogue is a continuous signal there is no dithering.
lol
This forum is getting out of hand. We need a teacher in the house :? Bit Depth, word length, sample rate, bit rate, dithering.
Or if not what about the good ole Google?

But in terms of analog and digital dither. me thinks this speaks to the algorithm used in coding the simulation. Meaning, one is coded to give an analog effect while the other is coded to simulate a more digital (cleaner/transparent)effect.
no. not at all, it was a joke.

which word do you need a definition of? it's all pretty basic audio stuff (bit depth, word length, sample rate, bit rate, dithering.) go read wikipedia.
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lunabass
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Re: Dithering!

Post by lunabass » Wed Mar 25, 2009 11:38 pm

evon wrote:But in terms of analog and digital dither. me thinks this speaks to the algorithm used in coding the simulation. Meaning, one is coded to give an analog effect while the other is coded to simulate a more digital (cleaner/transparent)effect.
:lol: oh dear. stop making stuff up. you're only making it worse.

djsynchro most definitely had his tongue firmly wedged in cheek
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evon
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Re: Dithering!

Post by evon » Thu Mar 26, 2009 5:08 pm

lunabass wrote:
evon wrote:But in terms of analog and digital dither. me thinks this speaks to the algorithm used in coding the simulation. Meaning, one is coded to give an analog effect while the other is coded to simulate a more digital (cleaner/transparent)effect.
:lol: oh dear. stop making stuff up. you're only making it worse.

djsynchro most definitely had his tongue firmly wedged in cheek
Taken!! I wasnt thinking. Got my brain back today. This does not apply to dither. Probably would apply to stuff like Eq's and other effects.
fe real!

ReverendZed
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Re: Dithering!

Post by ReverendZed » Thu Mar 26, 2009 6:39 pm

noes... noes... you peeple broke mah brain...
Don't tell me how to internet...

sowhoso
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Re: Dithering!

Post by sowhoso » Thu Mar 26, 2009 10:44 pm


re.mark
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Re: Dithering!

Post by re.mark » Mon May 04, 2009 9:53 am

Tone Deft wrote:do you know how they relate? what's a word?
Bird.

The bird is the word.

solacerodgers
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Re: Dithering!

Post by solacerodgers » Wed May 13, 2009 1:25 am

I know this topic has been beaten to death but I just got a chance to read the 3 guides and see what they said about the subject of intersample peaks and dithering in general.

On the topic of dithering its a excellent read and you also get audio examples to hear and see what is going on as well as a excellent guide for using dithering with ozone in almost every DAW but still the only words said about the function of preventing intersampling peaks was this.......

"In the digital world, audio is represented and processed as discrete individual samples or levels. When played back in the real world, these samples are converted to continuous waveforms. In some situations, the nature of this "real world" audio signal could result in clipping "between the samples" even when the limiter is limiting the digital samples. Selecting the "Prevent inter-sample clips" option allows Ozone to intelligently predict the behavior of the analog signal, and prevent, as the control says, any inter-sample clipping."

After much much much reading and research I found out what they mean by "no inter-sample peaks" I only use this in quotes as its more of the DAC's fault then software that causes this but with the MBIT+ dithering that Ozone uses....More on the MBIT+ in a min let's see what happens when you press play on that cd you just put in your player.........

So what commonly happens in the current mass market DAC's is it id designed to do the vast majority of their reconstruction process by employing a digital Finite Impulse Response (FIR) filter design tailored to provide a brick wall low-pass response. This approach overcomes the less perfect slope response issues of pure-analogue filter designs. These FIR filters work as follows, firstly, the audio is up-sampled to a multiple of the original sample rate, then the FIR is used to create the smooth curve in-between the original sample points. Of course different DACs have various ways of doing this and indeed, the finer details of the process are important design elements of the DAC design. So with these flaw's in the design and use Ozone has designed MBIT+ that it is effective at removing quantization error and still perceptually quiet in level. Any differences in the shaping is relatively minor considering we're talking about signals that are going to be heard at -95 dB or more. In short, this is meant to be a positive presentation of two similar "Near Nyquist" shapes and we hope you recognize that as well.

So how does the MBIT+ fix this, by providing a combination of up-sampling and filtering that mimics the operation of an oversampling DAC’s reconstruction process so you get *no quantization errors and a much better reconstruction of the audio from the digital domain to the analog world through the DAC's.

**** IF YOU DONT WANT TO READ THE ENTIRE ARTICLE HERES THE NUTSHELL *****

Yes it does prevent inter-sample peaks when using it correctly even with horrible DAC's, this is still a issuse of truncating the wordlength and a good noise shaping or filtering program when dithering. In short you still maintain the same noise floor with higher detail, not to be confused with increased dynamic range as you can only fit about -96db's into 16 bit audio regardless of bitrate your DAW works in.
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lunabass
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Re: Dithering!

Post by lunabass » Wed May 13, 2009 2:10 am

solacerodgers wrote:Dither Stuff
good on you for looking into this...knowledge is power and all that but i think people get a bit too hung up on this kind of stuff instead of just concentrating on good music...i've been very guilty of this myself in the past so i'm certainly not having a go at you.

what dither you use is not going to make or break a good track. unfortunately the catch is that you don't realize this until you've at least done some research.

if you're reading this thread and are completely confused, i'd say just take on board what ethios mentioned earlier and get on with writing good music.
ethios4 wrote:OP - you should maintain the highest bit-rate you can throughout your workflow. If you are exporting parts to be mixed later, you will benefit from exporting them as 32-bit. Only apply dither once, and at the very end of your process, when you go to 16-bit.
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solacerodgers
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Re: Dithering!

Post by solacerodgers » Wed May 13, 2009 2:24 am

Oh man I feel you on not getting obsessed on aspects on music production but if you read the 4 pages we were having a friendly debate on a few topics and also im the type of guy who reads a manual before touching a new peice of gear its just me. I do mostly mastering work here in SC so topics like dithering are actually interesting to me lol I know I spent my day reading 3 pdfs but had to figure out why Ozone claimed to prevent inter-sample peaks.
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lunabass
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Re: Dithering!

Post by lunabass » Wed May 13, 2009 2:46 am

all good mate. as i said i'm not having a go and i have no objection to people discussing this stuff here. my only concern are the people reading this that are getting themselves completely confused hence my reason for posting ethios4's explanation...which keeps things simple
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Tone Deft
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Re: Dithering!

Post by Tone Deft » Wed May 13, 2009 4:00 am

some good reading, thanks! some topics are worth digging up over and over, helps ME learn. ;)
In my life
Why do I smile
At people who I'd much rather kick in the eye?
-Moz

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