israel attacks gaza bound aid flotilla.

[leedsquietman]

Fair enough.

A lot of people don't really know why they're pissed off (because they're not from the Middle East, or have any Middle Eastern background), they just believe that they should be pissed off and outraged based on the say so of some media outlets, (or lord help us, some of the Live forum 'philosophers').

It's a complex subject and requires much research and deep thinking, not made easy by most media outlets using the issue as propaganda for their own agendas on both sides, and by generalized opinions from people who have little to no experience of living through these conflicts over a period of time. Of course, they always pick the most provocative people to show live on TV in interviews too, makes for more interest and higher ratings ... When was the last time you saw a news report like this which didn't have some radical burning a star of david flag, or a Jewish person on the street sympathizing with the Arab World and condemning the government for these barricades (and when was there such a report which didn't show IDF on the streets with guns or in a n armoured personnel carrier).

The real truth (whatever that is) usually makes for dull TV.

[alex.the.forge]

Fair enough.

A lot of people don't really know why they're pissed off (because they're not from the Middle East, or have any Middle Eastern background), they just believe that they should be pissed off and outraged based on the say so of some media outlets, (or lord help us, some of the Live forum 'philosophers').

It's a complex subject and requires much research and deep thinking, not made easy by most media outlets using the issue as propaganda for their own agendas on both sides, and by generalized opinions from people who have little to no experience of living through these conflicts over a period of time. Of course, they always pick the most provocative people to show live on TV in interviews too, makes for more interest and higher ratings ... When was the last time you saw a news report like this which didn't have some radical burning a star of david flag, or a Jewish person on the street sympathizing with the Arab World and condemning the government for these barricades (and when was there such a report which didn't show IDF on the streets with guns or in a n armoured personnel carrier).

The real truth (whatever that is) usually makes for dull TV.

yeah I totally agree and fully admit I know nothing about it really from the point of view real experience, but then I think it can be easy to use that as an excuse to never pay attention to what is going on, and there is a danger that if everyone takes that view then terrible things will go unchecked. Even though governments do what the hell they like most of the time anyway, public opinion does at least seem to have some affect some times.

Anyway, like you say - Ableton forum = armchair politics.

[leedsquietman]

That's always the hardest thing - people didn't care about Rwanda and a massacre happened, on the other hand sometimes too many people (many of whom don't have a clue) interject their opinions on things such as the Middle East (and formerly the 'troubles' in N.Ireland) and saturating the topic to the point of compassion fatigue.

It is vitally important that the World authorities keep trying to bring a peaceful resolution to these problems, in spite of 60+ years of failure. How the hell they're going to do it I don't know, but if everyone backs off, there will be just be armed conflict which could spill over into another global conflict.

If my grandad was still alive, he would have just knocked their heads together and given EVERYONE a good strapping with the belt and then there'd be no further problems

[UKRuss]

I have read some of the recent posts and decided that all of that would deter me from my main aim of ranting about religion and it's pointlessness in the modern world. I shall not be distracted!

[dum]

leeds, as usual, making sweeping statements and utterly failing to substantiate anything he says in the context of the thread. Anything that's been said that you think is false ? point it out. What about the 'propaganda' you refer to ? You seem sympathetic to the IDF and you seem to hint that it's israeli criticism which is 'whacky' or somehow 'media manipulation'

leeds entry into the discussion was to troll, then he joined in a red herring discussion on religion, and now he's basically trying to moot the idea of empathy as an impossible conquest.

Is he really this much of a cockend, or is he just doing it out of spite because it's an issue I raised ? Very hard to tell, but either way the conclusion is simple: cockend.



as for me, I've been volunteering for years. I've met palestinians and israelis and discussed at great length the conflict. I take part in the palestinian solidarity campaigns here in ireland, I've met and you might even say know many of the irish activists who were a part of the irish contingent on this recent flotilla. One of whom was intentionally shot, in 2001, by the IDF at close range (they offered to make her a 'hero' before blasting), as she moved children from the street into shelter. I'm a well read individual, and I keep an open mind. I am interested in world history.

So, am I allowed to have an opinion on this conflict ?
If you promote indifference, and apathy maybe you should keep your fruitless opinions to yourself, and let the compassionate human beings discuss issues unimpeded by your repugnant lack of interest, understanding, empathy.





The current train of discussion:
3 brits trying to reduce the issue into an unresolvable quandary, with no one at fault.

How quaint.

if you want to talk off-topic, Russ, why don't you tell the class what you think 'united kingdom' means. You see fit to prefix your name with UK and I for one would be genuinely interested in what you have to say on that topic.
And as for your outlook on the conflict revolving around religion. Seems to me you're simply trying to justify your apathy with quasi-quasi-QUASI-intellectual reasoning. Let me enlighten you. You don't care, because you're too fat & lazy and comfortable in your world of fat laziness to be confronted with such an ugly situation.

one of the greatest lessons the world took from world war two can be summed up in one word:
indifference

[leedsquietman]

The great one speaks and we shall obey...

Fantastic. That gave me all the humour I needed to have a great day.

[dum]

^^^ response as expected.

it's a great way of shutting leeds up. ask him to substantiate.

[UKRuss]

See fit? I am UKRuss becasue I am from the UK. I have no interest in your moral crusades or self-proclaimed intellectual superiority. Beyond that I also have no interest in debating the United Kingdon at the whim of an internet prankster.

Your flip-flopping between agression and insult and aloofness, post-to-post, simply points to you being a borderline sociopath that you control by narcissistic pursuits justified in your own mind as moral causes or 'intellectually worthy'.

But whatever, you're always good for a chuckle and a good excuse to wind up the religios and their fucking idiotic belief systems.

Me and the Mrs always read through your posts for a good chuckle. we've started doing it instead of watching 'Desperate Housewives', while the writing is not quite as good, the plot is always better.

[dum]

^^^ ad-hominem cop-out response 2.
Only one slot left to achieve the trifecta.

See fit. Yes exactly, you don't see anyone else prefixing their nick in a similar way. Besides, you clearly don't want an on-topic discussion. So why not tell us how you view the united kingdom in the context of the topic at hand ? are you sincerely trying to tell me you don't see the relevance in such a discussion ? Someone pontificating on the occupation from the perspective of religion...shouldn't find it so difficult to see where the 'united kingdom' fits in.

But I openly admit, I didn't expect you to elaborate or provide any kind of well thought out contribution in that regard.

The rest of your post is just a meandering ad-hominem, but on the topic of my 'self-proclaimed' intellectual superiority I must say for the record I would never overtly imply or claim to be intellectually superior to you. That would not be much of an achievement.

[alex.the.forge]

... but on the topic of my 'self-proclaimed' intellectual superiority I must say for the record I would never overtly imply or claim to be intellectually superior to you. That would not be much of an achievement.

Zing!

[LoopStationZebra]

Helen Thomas under fire for saying Jews in Israel should go back to Germany, Poland
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/20 ... 4k5&hpt=T2



3dot, get your bags packed!

[UKRuss]

I know, another ad hominem from the man who doesnt like ad hominems. Calling ad hominem on my ad hominem repsonse to his ad hominem.

Look Dum, you popn along to a local internet forum post up some anti-israeli quotes on an international incident then fuck off and hide while some squabbling starts only returning when you think your thread has been derailed.

You want a debate fine, but you actually have to start one. You havent actually posted anything of interest at all in the thread. but you know that, it's just an internet flame war you're trying to stir for your own amusement.

There is no debate going on, certainly not on any intellectual level. Believe me, I get my intellect elsewhere.

You've got yourself involved in some pro-palestine flag waving, congrats, we all did that back in the day. Commendable, whoop de do.

You want a debate start a debate. There isn;t a single post of anything worth debating in this entire thread apart from my highly accurate stance on religion.

I am a little rusty though, I moved on to 'Save the Panda' in 1985 and have been through a few causes since then.

[LoopStationZebra]

I know, another ad hominem from the man who doesnt like ad hominems. Calling ad hominem on my ad hominem repsonse to his ad hominem.

Look Dum, you popn along to a local internet forum post up some anti-israeli quotes on an international incident then fuck off and hide while some squabbling starts only returning when you think your thread has been derailed.

Come now. You know better than that. He drops a bomb, leaves, and comes back knowing exactly what he's going to find: No one praising His name and agreeing with him wholeheartedly. Christ, even the rabble that do agree, but differ on a minor point or two, get blasted. He knows full well that, this being the interwebs, the conversation is going to veer on and off topic. Then he comes back and feigns that he's not surprised yet surprised or bored or disappointed or blah blah blah. Wash, rinse, repeat. Ad nauseum. He's utterly predictable, whilst at the same time he's smugly self-satisfied because he's called out all of us as being predictable.

There is no debate going on, certainly not on any intellectual level.

*shrug* There's been debate. Just not one that dum has taken part in; because, well, he doesn't need to. There's no point, really. Because......

.....because he comes to the table with his mind absolutely, positively made-up. I cannot recall a single instance, ANYWHERE on this forum, in which he's conceeded a point. Even a minor one, ffs. Or even went so far as to say "interesting point". Or "hadn't thought of that". That's just sick and wrong. To dum, this is all just a playground where he can be this raging A-Hole without consequence.

[dum]

Look Dum, you popn along to a local internet forum post up some anti-israeli quotes on an international incident then fuck off and hide while some squabbling starts only returning when you think your thread has been derailed.

'anti-isreal' ..... 'international incident' ..... 'fuck off and hide'

oh deary me. There was no 'hiding', I think that's a little weird of you to conclude.
I have addressed the main points raised in my 'absence' in the previous page. mainly mooting the religion red herring (pat yourself on the back for that one), the media 'fail' and the comprehension failure re: the flotilla's intent.

I'm critical of israel. So is the UN, infact there is no other state in modern history who has done more to flout the UN charter. Call it 'anti-israel' if you want, but it would be interesting if you would elaborate on what excactly 'anti-israel' is supposed to mean. It seems that pigeon holing someone into that category makes it easier for you to ignore what they're saying. I could be wrong.

You want a debate fine, but you actually have to start one. You havent actually posted anything of interest at all in the thread. but you know that, it's just an internet flame war you're trying to stir for your own amusement.

Spurious bullshit.
I started the thread because it's news worthy, there was nothing really to 'debate' other than to bring the issue to the table. What's 'debatable' has been debated. See above. I've responded, I've mooted your religion angle, I've mooted the media 'fail' angle, I've illustrated the comprehension failure regarding the flotilla's purpose. And what did i get in reply ? Nothing but ad-hominems. Because I'm right.
Say what you like, but while I'm not adverse to slinging an ad-hominem here and there - when I engage in a debate I will offer tangible ideas & opinions to be challenged, not solely insubstantial, irrelevant slurs. So, you can continue you're red herring discussion with others who agree with you, or you can respond to someone who has challenged your opinion and logic. As it stands you've not taken the opportunity to defend your position that it's "jews vs muslims. nothing more"

Moron.

[dum]

failstation,
just look at your contributions to this thread. words like 'fail' , petty little ad-hominems punctuated with smileys, links to articles you googled feverishly specifically to paint criticisms of israel or palestinian activism in a negative light - punctuated with smileys, giant and colourful type

But for the most part it's easy to ignore, you have exposed yourself quite clearly in previous discussions (beats me/xenophobe) as someone completely and unequivocally disingenuous in their arguments.