sound quality: live vs. logic

hitherto · Post by **hitherto** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 5:22 am

LOFA wrote: First question: " Did you even read the complete paragraph I wrote?"
Comment: " I am not asking the righteous Live guru to decide for me
which DAW to use. I'm trying to utilize my silly Psych 101
knowledge to transcend a paradigm and potentially identify
a very real parameter.

I made a comment pertaining to the limitations of unconsciously, superficially, evalualting a product, and the first thing you do is skim my post and accuse me of believing the opposite of my point!

Perhaps I was too subtle, and you missed my point completely. I agree with your take on your own interpretation of what I was trying to convey. I eat shit and breathe ableton.

ummmmmm....My comments were not directed at you, or any one in particular. They were directed at anyone who reads this thread, or anyone who has read the 50 other threads just like it.

I am sorry if I pushed a button, but I didn't even skim your post(s), as I said I didn't read most of this thread.

LOFA wrote: The question for me is not which one, it's do I even need Logic for non-live production. I think we are on the same page. I hope this doesn't mean your music will never improve...

As you allude to in this question, You are the only one who can answer this question. For me, at this point in time, I need logic. I just need more control and better performance.

What it comes down to is what is best for you and what best serves your needs.

hitherto · Post by **hitherto** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 5:23 am

double post

hitherto · Post by **hitherto** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 5:25 am

AdamJay wrote:LOFA,

PBS has an excellent series called "Frontline", and thanks to Sqook i discovered they archive many of their episode/documentaries online now. They can be watched with Windows Media Player (even on mac hehe)

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/view/

the reason i'm telling you this, is there is one particular episode that i think you would enjoy concerning the whole superficial consumerism paradigm. The name of the episode is "The Persuaders" from 2004. Its about marketing. Watch this, and keep in mind how Logic Pro is marketed (and owned by Apple), and also keep in mind how Live is marketed.

There will be a quiz on Thursday

I love that show!!!!

LOFA · Post by **LOFA** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 6:55 am

Yeah, I am watching it right now. I stopped watching TV 7 or 8 years ago (once I started studying graphic design- It pissed me off considerably), but I have always loved PBS- No Commercials!

Hitherto, yeah, you pushed my button. Never push my button after I had a
"Red Bull ENERGY DRINK"

I thought I saw my name attached to the post, so I sort of thought you were adressing me. Fucking Taurine... turns me into such a tool... But the can looks so nice next to my... I apologize...

LOFA · Post by **LOFA** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 7:02 am

double post

Vercengetorex · Post by **Vercengetorex** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 12:07 pm

You guys are funny.

Nice tests Adam and Randy, but to me Live just sounds more silky than anything else. Its totally different, summing or not. I can load a single file into Live (with no warping or anything) and hear it in a doubleblind every time. Its probably just my trained ears (I can even do it through my clock-radio speakers!).

Ha HA! SCIENCE!

randyh · Post by **randyh** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 5:31 pm

Vercengetorex wrote:You guys are funny.

Nice tests Adam and Randy, but to me Live just sounds more silky than anything else. Its totally different, summing or not. I can load a single file into Live (with no warping or anything) and hear it in a doubleblind every time. Its probably just my trained ears (I can even do it through my clock-radio speakers!).

Add "silky" to the list of words people use to describe a .374db gain increase.

All in good fun. Besides, that's only in relation to Logic. I have no idea if Live would come out louder than other apps.

-r

3phase · Post by **3phase** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 2:59 pm

AdamJay wrote: if you want to call it a toy, then call it a toy.
for me, its a "toy" that was used to complete an entire 2x12" album, several remixes, and several EPs.

Does it sound "Different" than other apps? quite possibly, but minimally.
Does it sound "Worse" or "Better" than other apps? Well that is simply a matter of opinion.

This entire thread is a matter of opinion, not a matter of fact. I think that Logic and Pro Tools sound sterile compared to Live. To me, Live has character, it has warmth. The same kind of character and warmth i found in my own hardware several years ago.

It´s nice that you are happy but statements like this are against the positiv development of the program. Live has by far the best userinterface but a real shitty sound quality.. you call it warmth.. i call it muffled..
However..
Next month i will visit my microphon developing friend and will measure what is going on, with his Audio measurement equipment
Not because i need it..just because we have to leave the area of personal opinion here. When the soundengine is faulty this probably has to be prooved in a more scientific way. I really would like to work exclusevly with Live...but the programm needs to be improoved... not only soundwise. I wish Ableton a long Live..but when you see the Yamaha/Steinberg, the Sony/Acid and the Apple/Logic alliances i fear a bit about Ableton...

raapie · Post by **raapie** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 4:11 pm

3phase wrote: It´s nice that you are happy but statements like this are against the positiv development of the program. Live has by far the best userinterface but a real shitty sound quality.. you call it warmth.. i call it muffled..

if you find Live sounding muffled... why do you need to test it further than that? Don't trust your ears hey ?

3phase · Post by **3phase** » Wed Apr 13, 2005 6:14 pm

raapie wrote:
3phase wrote: It´s nice that you are happy but statements like this are against the positiv development of the program. Live has by far the best userinterface but a real shitty sound quality.. you call it warmth.. i call it muffled..
if you find Live sounding muffled... why do you need to test it further than that? Don't trust your ears hey ?

Of cause i trust my ears but some time its better to show the rough eared some Rhode&Schwarz or Audio Precission measurements ...
But i am not sure if i will find the time... I want to build a harmonic distorter based on a 1930 valve in the workshop of my friend and i am not sure if i should spend too much time in ableton Live measurements...
Sometimes it needs quite a bit of time to find the wright measurement method. I am sure that plain freq response measurements will show nothing.

raapie · Post by **raapie** » Wed Apr 13, 2005 7:13 pm

okay. I did a phase chanceling test and that was just great. can't think of a better test. all studios do these kinds of tests all the time.

anyways: good luck designing!

3phase · Post by **3phase** » Wed Apr 13, 2005 9:48 pm

raapie wrote:okay. I did a phase chanceling test and that was just great. can't think of a better test. all studios do these kinds of tests all the time.

anyways: good luck designing!

this just shows accuracy within the program... it dont tells what happens between the program and the audio drivers. it also dont tells what happens with dynamical sources. It dont tells what happens when mixing multiple tracks. This kind of test also would work in a program that uses data reduction algorythms before the mixbus....you still would get your cancelation even when the source audio gets totally degenerated.. aslong the phase reversed source material gets exactly the same degeneration it gets cannceled...therefore your test shows only that there is no random degeneration between tracks.

djadonis206 · Post by **djadonis206** » Wed Apr 13, 2005 10:55 pm

I'm glad you guys are running all these tests and bench marks - it's a little weird but someones got to do it

I have Logic and it sounds great - Live does to - Pro-Tools sounds awesome as well

I don't know - they all sound good...why all the fuss?

AdamJay · Post by **AdamJay** » Thu Apr 14, 2005 12:25 am

3phase... i think you need a refill...
your glass is constantly at least half-empty.

mikemc · Post by **mikemc** » Thu Apr 14, 2005 2:39 am

ok, so I've noticed something, and this might be the source of some of what's been discussed as a difference between live and other audio software.

Open up a new set, set the tempo to 130 bpm
Take a clip that is like a full rendered track-- something with a good spectral spread/registral width, that was done at another tempo, say 100 bpm.
Put it into an audio track of the set, turn warping off, so that it plays back at original speed.
Note how it sounds.
Then, turn the bpm in the set down to match the bpm of the clip.
Note how that sounds.

Does one sound better?

sound quality: live vs. logic

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at the risk of utterly flogging a deceased equine animal...