OT:Hold all Muslims responsible; London, Bali, Madrid, 911?

[Macrostructure]

Personally I find few more devastating than a black haired, green eyed feisty Irish woman, but that's another story

On a more serious note, let's all accept that the sins of the father are NOT the sins of the son. Furthermore, I think it's perfectly legitimate to title a thread "OT: xxx " and talk about whatever you like on a General forum.

ms

But the Bible (and possibly the Koran?) say the sins of the father will follow the family for 7 generations. Which, although I don't believe in the Bible or Koran, does make some sense. It takes a long time for peoples to forget and heal.

Er....it makes no ethical sense whatsoever actually. If it occurs in the real world because unenlightened people seek revenge or people interpet badly translated religious texts too literally well, that is another story...

[braj]

Personally I find few more devastating than a black haired, green eyed feisty Irish woman, but that's another story

On a more serious note, let's all accept that the sins of the father are NOT the sins of the son. Furthermore, I think it's perfectly legitimate to title a thread "OT: xxx " and talk about whatever you like on a General forum.

ms

But the Bible (and possibly the Koran?) say the sins of the father will follow the family for 7 generations. Which, although I don't believe in the Bible or Koran, does make some sense. It takes a long time for peoples to forget and heal.

Er....it makes no ethical sense whatsoever actually. If it occurs in the real world because unenlightened people seek revenge or people interpet badly translated religious texts too literally well, that is another story...

Of course it doesn't make any 'ethical' sense, but remember we're talking about humans here. You have to wait for all the Hatfields and McCoys to die off.

[rambuk]

This is not meant to be an inflammatory post.

All intelligent people know that only a tiny percent of muslim society have that hatred in their hearts that allows Bali, London, Madrid and WTC to happen.

But is it a good idea to just hold all muslims responsible and expect muslim society to take responsibility for the trouble-makers that also call themselves muslim?

Or does muslim society have zero responsibility to control their craziest members?

I can't be bothered to read this entire thread, but please - will you get real? Do you even have a clue how many christians, jews, muslims and buddhists this planet holds?

You can't take responsibility for every time someone with the same religion as you goes on a rampage. If that were to be true, somebody christian had gotten rid of Bush/Cheney/Wolfowitz a long time ago.

Basically, you are a complete moron. You cannot go around taking responsibility for the actions of 1 billion people. Grow up. And if the reason you are a complete idiot is that you are American, then try - for your God's sake - to read some foreign newspapers. We get told a lot more that you guys do.

[braj]

This is not meant to be an inflammatory post.

All intelligent people know that only a tiny percent of muslim society have that hatred in their hearts that allows Bali, London, Madrid and WTC to happen.

But is it a good idea to just hold all muslims responsible and expect muslim society to take responsibility for the trouble-makers that also call themselves muslim?

Or does muslim society have zero responsibility to control their craziest members?

I can't be bothered to read this entire thread, but please - will you get real? Do you even have a clue how many christians, jews, muslims and buddhists this planet holds?

You can't take responsibility for every time someone with the same religion as you goes on a rampage. If that were to be true, somebody christian had gotten rid of Bush/Cheney/Wolfowitz a long time ago.

Basically, you are a complete moron. You cannot go around taking responsibility for the actions of 1 billion people. Grow up. And if the reason you are a complete idiot is that you are American, then try - for your God's sake - to read some foreign newspapers. We get told a lot more that you guys do.

I believe the original poster DOESN"T think you can hold all <whatever group> accountable, and that this thread was just a discussion on that topic.

Anyway, I don't see the need for your hostility. Chill out, if you don't like the question don't read or respond.

[louZ]

(sorry didn't bother to read the whole thread)

there are no muslims in general... just as there are no christians in general.

catholics shouldn't be held responsible for the IRA either.

forum space shouldn't be wasted with crap.

[Livewire]

i'm a muslim and i'm not gona get all mad but thats a bit harsh man.

i'm just a regular guy living in california and i dont support terrorists in any way and i dont hate america. dont stereotype.

like i said before, there are extremists in all cultures.

peace.

Hi Livewire,
Glad you're not insulted...

What I would like to hear, is if some members of your community are able to say something else than the very unpasssionate and unconvincing "i don't support terror" Where's your oriental passion???
Where's your "BinLaden is a motherfucker!!!" Even stoic English gentlemen get angry and passionate when talking about Bush and Blair... The hot-blooded islamic community is telling the world "yep, euh... terror isnt' very right". Come on!
Even Arafat sounded more convincing when he was telling the naive western media "I want peace"

YOU CAN'T USE YOUR RELIGION TO DISCREDIT WHAT THE TERRORISTS DO!
Even if you say that islam is a religion of peace (for other muslims), you know that it preaches war on others religions.

That being said, it doesn't block me from having Muslim friends. I even had a long, serious relationship with a Muslim gal, so human nature is stronger than this ---- called religion.

Peace,

Ben

lol well see i'm half hispanic half iraqi, so i'm a muslim because of my dad. and i was born here so i dont have the same frustration as the muslims living in iraq do. but i do understand their anger.

the majority of native middle eastern people tend to get very frustrated about these subjects easily. partly because of the ignorance from other people. saying that you dont want to talk about this subject and just letting it be is an example of ignorance.

i'd rather not shout and go crazy like "bin laden should get his nuts chopped off!!!!!" or stuff like that cuz i'm not like that as a person. lol its not a religious thing, i just dont act like that.

islam doesnt PREACH war on other religions like "let's kill all the infidels!!! have no mercy!!! ahhhh!!!!" no its not like that. infact, islam means peace in arabic. have you heard of "an eye for an eye" ? yea its more like that. if a religion FIGHTS the muslims then the koran says to fight back. thats just common sense.

keep this thread going, i wana clear some things up. try not to cuss, shout, or insult anyone

[anonymouse]

This is not meant to be an inflammatory post.

All intelligent people know that only a tiny percent of muslim society have that hatred in their hearts that allows Bali, London, Madrid and WTC to happen.

But is it a good idea to just hold all muslims responsible and expect muslim society to take responsibility for the trouble-makers that also call themselves muslim?

Or does muslim society have zero responsibility to control their craziest members?

I can't be bothered to read this entire thread, but please - will you get real? Do you even have a clue how many christians, jews, muslims and buddhists this planet holds?

You can't take responsibility for every time someone with the same religion as you goes on a rampage. If that were to be true, somebody christian had gotten rid of Bush/Cheney/Wolfowitz a long time ago.

Basically, you are a complete moron. You cannot go around taking responsibility for the actions of 1 billion people. Grow up. And if the reason you are a complete idiot is that you are American, then try - for your God's sake - to read some foreign newspapers. We get told a lot more that you guys do.

I believe the original poster DOESN"T think you can hold all <whatever group> accountable, and that this thread was just a discussion on that topic.

Anyway, I don't see the need for your hostility. Chill out, if you don't like the question don't read or respond.

Rambuk, you may not have noticed, but this post was a question! For what it's worth, I did make my opinion clear much later on in the discussion ... and I think we are in agreement.

It worries me when people jump to conclusions after reading a few words of a few sentences and then fill in the rest with their imaginations. No wonder people fight over arguments that never started.

[anonymouse]

I have to say I am fairly surprised that the voting is so tight on this poll (I was sure it would be strongly skewed in one direction) But it has been really interesting to get views on either side. And even moreso to see how some people communicate their views.

I know we are all here for Abe Liv ... but being able to hear the views and ideas of people from all walks of life and corners of the globe is profound.

Particularly as this is an apolitical site where all political view points are likely to be present.

[SimonPHC]

(didn't read the whole thing, cause, man, there's too much)

Anyway, I got the feeling that some weird generalisations are being made here...

How do y'all feel about quote's like "All men are bastards, 'cause this one guy did this and that".

I know I'm a bastard, but that doesn't have to imply you guys out there are, right?

[anonymouse]

(didn't read the whole thing, cause, man, there's too much)

Anyway, I got the feeling that some weird generalisations are being made here...

How do y'all feel about quote's like "All men are bastards, 'cause this one guy did this and that".

I know I'm a bastard, but that doesn't have to imply you guys out there are, right?

99.99% of women seek a bastard. And the other 0.01% are quickly realising they aren't getting any poonani by opening doors and being doormats.

[Machinesworking]

If the Irish had stuck with the UK they'd probably have broadband now, nice heavy sterling in their pockets, better roads, less corruption (thanks Mr Burke & Mr Haughey), higher standards of education, less paddy whackery, a decent suburban and interurban rail system, wealthy ports on the Atlantic coast, a more mixed gene pool (better looking women), etc etc.

But seriously the activities of the English in Ireland over the centuries differed little than their exploitation of many other colonies.

OK two things, last year Ireland had the best economy in Europe. England wasn't doing so bad either, but Ireland was booming. Doesn't seem like they needed the English much.

Second, they treated them much worse than any other white colony, ( don't know about the others...). Ireland had some pretty fucked up things happen to it because of the English, if it had been less vile, it might have gone down like the Scottish surrender. From what I know they had to take Ireland county by county, and that pissed them off.

It really isn't that the Scotts are just better at defeat or anything like that, it's the way that it was handled. It bred the IRA, just the same way that American, English and Israeli domination in politics in the middle east bred Al Quada.

It's easy to simplify things down to good VS evil, but most situations evolve into much more complex problems than that.

[anonymouse]

OK two things, last year Ireland had the best economy in Europe. England wasn't doing so bad either, but Ireland was booming. Doesn't seem like they needed the English much.

Three more things:
(a) Apart from the 20 bln Euro charity handout that Ireland has been gifted from the EU over the past few years, Ireland remains heavily reliant on the UK for trade and for billions of pounds to support the Northern Ireland economy (not just policing)
(b) the Irish economy is booming largely due to it being a tax haven and having a semi-skilled english speaking labour force; thus tax revenues don't mean that it is an engine of industry or truly booming economically. Just that massive MNCs are diverting their revenues through Ireland to save huge amounts of tax (to the tune of billions of dollars not paid in the US, UK or other countries). Microsoft is just one example where billions less tax is paid by the company because Ireland offers a 12.5% corporate tax rate.
(c) there is a massive labour shortage now in Ireland for the back-office, clerical,callcentre & services work. Please come over!

Second, they treated them much worse than any other white colony, ( don't know about the others...). Ireland had some pretty fucked up things happen to it because of the English, if it had been less vile, it might have gone down like the Scottish surrender. From what I know they had to take Ireland county by county, and that pissed them off.

It really isn't that the Scotts are just better at defeat or anything like that, it's the way that it was handled. It bred the IRA, just the same way that American, English and Israeli domination in politics in the middle east bred Al Quada.

It's easy to simplify things down to good VS evil, but most situations evolve into much more complex problems than that.

Hmm, bad things did happen; but no worse than happened elsewhere on the planet at the hands of the English, French, Spanish, Dutch, Portuguese and the rest of the colonialists. However the Irish have made a mini industry out of patriotic songs, folklore and exaggerated public woundlicking for centuries.
It has at last been recognised as a record that has been heavily overplayed - people are getting bored with lamenting the past. Most Irish are now much more forward looking, largely due to increased amount of foreign travel and realisation of how backward Ireland still is compared to major world economies. (untravelled Irish are convinced that Ireland is the centre of world commerce and culture) You still get the odd hopeless drunk moaning his head off about imaginary abuses and battles from hundreds of years ago, but in general society is maturing and moving onwards and upwards at a good pace.
Ireland is still a uniquely rural and backward outpost in comparison to the highly developed nations of Europe. But that is a valuable thing to retain, rather than be concreted over by the faceless machine of bland euro progress.
I love the mixed society now of potato-headed countryfolk in woollen jumpers and wellingtons while their University educated sons are wearing pinstriped suits, guffawing on their mobile phones and drinking champers in the exotic bars of Dublin & Cork. In many ways the wealthy younger generation is racing to emulate their counterparts in London; if not relocate there.

[Machinesworking]

Three more things:
(a) Apart from the 20 bln Euro charity handout that Ireland has been gifted from the EU over the past few years, Ireland remains heavily reliant on the UK for trade and for billions of pounds to support the Northern Ireland economy (not just policing)
(b) the Irish economy is booming largely due to it being a tax haven and having a semi-skilled english speaking labour force; thus tax revenues don't mean that it is an engine of industry or truly booming economically. Just that massive MNCs are diverting their revenues through Ireland to save huge amounts of tax (to the tune of billions of dollars not paid in the US, UK or other countries). Microsoft is just one example where billions less tax is paid by the company because Ireland offers a 12.5% corporate tax rate.
(c) there is a massive labour shortage now in Ireland for the back-office, clerical,callcentre & services work. Please come over!

Construction worker and musician, no office work for me. I'm still trying to figure out how offering a lower tax rate is bad? It's helped out their economy right?

Ireland is still a uniquely rural and backward outpost in comparison to the highly developed nations of Europe.

I'm still not sure what any of that has to do with history, but then again, this whole thread was/is a major distraction from the real issues at hand in these political problems.

For instance is it as important to have a religious community address the issue of terrorists, as it is to have the west try to understand without bias why terrorists are in existence in the first place?

This was initially the reason I responded to the Irish thing, and remains unanswered.

[rambuk]

I can't be bothered to read this entire thread, but please - will you get real? Do you even have a clue how many christians, jews, muslims and buddhists this planet holds?

You can't take responsibility for every time someone with the same religion as you goes on a rampage. If that were to be true, somebody christian had gotten rid of Bush/Cheney/Wolfowitz a long time ago.

Basically, you are a complete moron. You cannot go around taking responsibility for the actions of 1 billion people. Grow up. And if the reason you are a complete idiot is that you are American, then try - for your God's sake - to read some foreign newspapers. We get told a lot more that you guys do.

I believe the original poster DOESN"T think you can hold all <whatever group> accountable, and that this thread was just a discussion on that topic.

Anyway, I don't see the need for your hostility. Chill out, if you don't like the question don't read or respond.

Rambuk, you may not have noticed, but this post was a question! For what it's worth, I did make my opinion clear much later on in the discussion ... and I think we are in agreement.

It worries me when people jump to conclusions after reading a few words of a few sentences and then fill in the rest with their imaginations. No wonder people fight over arguments that never started.

The question was if the "islamic community" - whatever that is - has some kind resposiblity whenever somebody does something silly in the name of Islam.

The "islamic community" is a hell of a lotta people all over the world. How can some guy in, let's say, the Filippines have any kind of responsibility to do anything, when some crazed up mujaheddin goes and blows himself up in London?

There are a lot of crazy fucks running around claiming to be christians and doing all kinds off silly shit, like mass suicides and so forth. Are the rest of the christians obligated to do anything about that? Of course not. What kind of a stupid question is that?

[montrealbreaks]

There are a lot of crazy fucks running around claiming to be christians and doing all kinds off silly shit, like mass suicides and so forth. Are the rest of the christians obligated to do anything about that? Of course not. What kind of a stupid question is that?

Actually Rambuk, I disagree with you.

It's my responsibility to stop injustice and evil everywhere I come across it. I'm no hero, I'm just a moral person. It _IS_ the responsibility of every true christian to either weed out or educate the violent idiots in their midst, and to speak out loudly out against it. It _IS_ the responsibility of every citizen of a western country (north, whatever) to call bullshit when their governments execute injustice and to do what they can to stop it.

It's politically correct cowards who abdicate islamic responsibility to deal with the snakes in their own midst. I said it earlier but it's lost in the depth of this tread; there's no muslim "anti-establishment" movement like there is in the West to moderate their society.

Thesis + Antithesis = Synthesis

It takes the result of conflicting ideas expressed peacefully to achieve stability and balance between them, and that doesn't exist in Islam. No radical idiot jihadist who's gone talibananas is going to listen to pleas for peace and tolerance from westerners or christians (or jews or hindus for that matter); it's up to other muslims to defuse this situation, it's the only way.

All this poll was asking was whether Islam as a society should hold itself accountable, just like every other society is accountable. Stop making fucking politically correct exceptions that contribute to killing people (ironically enough, exceptions that kill more muslims than anybody else).