Ableton Forum

robtronik wrote:

Spikee wrote:

deva wrote:There are some wacky theories out there, and there are plenty of people who thrive on conspiratorial stories. That does not mean everyone who asks questions, for which there have been no good answers is a nut. Calling everyone that is just a way to dismiss people and avoid the issues raised.

Amen. Robtronik could take a que from this.

Why? I've only challenged ideas, not the people. You are incorrect with your misguided suggestion to me.

rob.

etc. etc. You guys are on crack if you think that kind of organization can occur ON THE FLY in real time and respond to a needle in the haystack. Remember, all of you are operating in HINDSIGHT not during the crisis with no warning.

Please. Put the pipes down and think about what you are claiming is realistically possible on those short hours that we were attacked. Any of you ever worked for a large corporation? Right, then. You should know what I'm talking about.

Whatever you want to say was happening there Rob, you walk the razor's edge between debate and ridicule. And sometimes you slip in the wrong direction but what do I know, that's just crack-smoking me and the idea I've drawn...

This is for the retarded conspiracy people. Loose Change and other crap flying around the internet debunked by a reputable source:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/scienc ... 27842.html

mikemc wrote:

knotkranky wrote:

mikemc wrote:

just a point-- there is a difference between knowing something will happen and planning to take advantage of it, as opposed to taking advantage of it after it happened. I believe that the administration is capable of the latter. I have trouble believing they are capable of the former.

Yeah, i'm with you on that. They simply gambled blindly and incompetently and secretly hoped for some kind of wild card to help sell the Iraq war. They needed something, they wanted something. I'm guessing 911 was a bigger something that they thought would happen. They may have been surprised but still criminally negligent in knowing plenty. They certainly turned a systematic blind eye to the precursors. Kinda like a game of chicken with whole countries. "Bring it on" is right.

yes.

i'd have to say the whole thing has made me more spiritual, because it will absolutely require an all knowing, all loving and forgiving higher intelligence to sort this shit out. sometims i lose it and think as a first step the US should nuke Texas, except my sister lives there.

Well said. The biggest issue is simple and should be the worlds drum. If one considers the fact that the planet will double in population in just over fifty years a real paradigm shift in all the world is desperately needed. Imagine this planet in a few hundred years, which is a blip in human evolution. Sorry to say, humanity will not survive. Bush has only hastened the pressure. 2008 is a long way away, though it won't do much when he's gone. His legacy will dog us for a hundred years. The only people who will survive a little longer stay on this planet in the future are the very few who can afford to; His heirs and their future cronies. We maybe living in the best of times. Pray, meditate, bless or simply wish for tolerance around the world, and right quick. Solving 911 won't do much more than put a few assholes behind bars if your lucky. What, you want closure? Move your mind into the future and don't let it happen again. Were better off learning how to vote for a real leader. If anybody out there voted for bush, you didn't help anybody and thanks for nothing.

Spikee wrote:

robtronik wrote:

Spikee wrote: Amen. Robtronik could take a que from this.

Why? I've only challenged ideas, not the people. You are incorrect with your misguided suggestion to me.

rob.

etc. etc. You guys are on crack if you think that kind of organization can occur ON THE FLY in real time and respond to a needle in the haystack. Remember, all of you are operating in HINDSIGHT not during the crisis with no warning.

Please. Put the pipes down and think about what you are claiming is realistically possible on those short hours that we were attacked. Any of you ever worked for a large corporation? Right, then. You should know what I'm talking about.

Whatever you want to say was happening there Rob, you walk the razor's edge between debate and ridicule. And sometimes you slip in the wrong direction but what do I know, that's just crack-smoking me and the idea I've drawn...

its a figure of speech, didn't realize you were so thin skinned. Next time I'll be more transparent and just call you guys idiots.


(that's a joke btw, in case you took that personally).

rob.

There are some extremely potent and important statements being made here. this shit is BIG. check out mikemc, glitchrock-buddha, and deva's words on PAGE 5 of this thread. Well said!



and I have to give it to robotronik
for one thing: it seems we live in a crazy world. there are some crazy people in Islamic fundamentalism. And the era of guns is over. its biological weapons, and dirty bombs. this is a dangerous time. the age of terrorism gives lots of power to small groups of people, as opposed to large armies.


in a deep dark place inside of me, i feel safer knowing that the US military has big presence over there at this time of Peak Oil. But, i also know we are creating more angry terrorists for the next generation.

robtronik wrote:Then we begin the hard work of rebuilding and supporting that region's change into democracies -
.02 and all that,

rob.

We should rather concentrate on creating democracy here.

We have one of the most controlled media in the world here. You will find a wider range of world viewpoints expressed in many so called dictatorships, than you will in this so called democracy.

The 4th Amendment is basically gone.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


1st Amendment? shaky

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.


Try peaceably assembling. You will get pepper sprayed, beaten, arrested on bogus charges. The police particularly target independent media and organizers for intimidation and repression. I have experienced this firsthand, many times.

If Bush comes to town and you want to exress your opposition to his policies? You are not allowed near. Protests are forceably corralled in "free speech zones", often surrounded by barbed wire and in a place where nobody can hear the supposed free speech.

The idea of free speech is based in the notion of communication. It is NOT free speech if the only place you can speak is where noone can hear.

Fascism is growing, and growing fast here in this country. Talk of democracy in the middle east is a sham because the Bush admistration is intent upon imposing a fascist police state here in this country. And that is not in the slightest bit and exaggeration. We better get our own house in order first before we arrogantly try to impose change on others.

GaryTracks wrote:for one thing: it seems we live in a crazy world. there are some crazy people in Islamic fundamentalism. And the era of guns is over. its biological weapons, and dirty bombs. this is a dangerous time. the age of terrorism gives lots of power to small groups of people, as opposed to large armies.


in a deep dark place inside of me, i feel safer knowing that the US military has big presence over there at this time of Peak Oil. But, i also know we are creating more angry terrorists for the next generation.

Well stated but I disagree.

"biological weapons, and dirty bombs." - none have been used, at least not 'officially'. There's Gulf War syndrome after the Gulf War, but no biologicals. It's simple conventional explosives, car bombs, AK47s in the street, RPGs, nothing fancy, no refined biologicals or dirty bombs. That's the irony of the Iraq war, it's a conventional war whereas the US has trained for push button war.

"small groups of people" - Iraq is drawing in thousands and thousands of people from other US hating countries, if anything they have the numbers.

"i feel safer knowing that the US military has big presence over there at this time of Peak Oil" - And that military is being run into the ground, we're dividing and conquering ourselves. Enlistment is down, enslistment standards are down. Our soldiers are overworked, underpaid, and underfunded. Veterans' benefits are being taken away.
“Recruiters are knowingly allowing neo-Nazis and white supremacists to join the armed forces, and commanders don’t remove them from the military even after we positively identify them as extremists or gang members,” the report quotes Defense Department investigator Scott Barfield as saying.

"more angry terrorists for the next generation." - more angry terrorists today, a generation of domestic war veterans at home tomorrow.



It doesn't matter what REALLY happened. There are enough impeachable offenses against Bush to put him away for a long time, but nothing will happen to him. These are all the same arguments and most of the same posters on the 9/11 bandwagon. Important OT stuff but what's the point here?

Rob- It's a trip for me to read stuff from people with sound minds whom I totally disagree with, it puts it all into perspective. I have to respect that you're out there and thinking about this stuff. There are no right or wrong answers, actions at this point are more important. Rob, you need to stop voting.


They can fly 3 planes into 3 buildings in 1 day but they can't blow up one fucking Texan?? Dumbfuck terrorists...



I just so happened to watch John Stewart's monologe after 9/11 a few minutes ago
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkuqoTseUPo
Heavy.

robtronik wrote: 1) No one said Saddam was responsible for 9/11. You aren't paying attention to why he was removed and this is a straw man argument and mistaken.

Yes, the White House did effectively say this at one point. It was one of the many lies in the shifting ground of rationale. Shifting because as one lie was revealed, another had to be told to justify what they had determined to do before 9/11 even happened.

Iraq has weapons of mass destruction and we are in immanent danger!!!! biological wapons, chemical weapons, huge stockpiles fear fear fear... LIES

Saddam is trying to obtain radioactive material to build a bomb!! Niger Niger, yellow Cake ohhhhh... more fabricated LIES

Oh, Saddam supports AL CIAda and had a hand in 9/11, we need revenge... LIES

Oh Saddam is bad, an evil man, he tortures people! We have to bring democracy to those poor people... LIES

We don't care about democracy or rights. We are the ones now torturing Iraqis.

We don't care about democracy or a healthy nation cause if we did we would be scared shitless of what is happening right here.

The Bush adminstration is the biggest criminal enterprise the world has ever seen.

deva wrote:

robtronik wrote: 1) No one said Saddam was responsible for 9/11. You aren't paying attention to why he was removed and this is a straw man argument and mistaken.

Yes, the White House did effectively say this at one point. It was one of the many lies in the shifting ground of rationale. Shifting because as one lie was revealed, another had to be told to justify what they had determined to do before 9/11 even happened.

Iraq has weapons of mass destruction and we are in immanent danger!!!! biological wapons, chemical weapons, huge stockpiles fear fear fear... LIES

Saddam is trying to obtain radioactive material to build a bomb!! Niger Niger, yellow Cake ohhhhh... more fabricated LIES

Oh, Saddam supports AL CIAda and had a hand in 9/11, we need revenge... LIES

Oh Saddam is bad, an evil man, he tortures people! We have to bring democracy to those poor people... LIES

We don't care about democracy or rights. We are the ones now torturing Iraqis.

We don't care about democracy or a healthy nation cause if we did we would be scared shitless of what is happening right here.

The Bush adminstration is the biggest criminal enterprise the world has ever seen.

aside from your extremist stuff, go read the resolution that congress passed giving Bush the authority to act on Iraq. Its all there. Then think about what the rationale was for going in.

9/11 was the trigger, but not the cause, for beginning to look at rogue states that defied international resoutions via the U.N. differently. Its all there.

BTW, all your evidence that you discount in hindsight was widely accepted as fact across the board by prior administrations and other countries intelligence as well. Lies? No. Mistaken? Maybe. The jury is still out on that. They are finding evidence via the captured documents every day of memos and orders given by Saddam showing evidence of WMD cover up.

But all that doesn't really matter now does it? He did use them on his own people and did invade kuwait and did kick U.N. inspectors out his country and did defy the no fly zones and did not provide the proof of removing said WMD's etc. etc. etc. So, you should think hard about who you are trying to protect and then also accuse in past events.

rob.

DeadlyKungFu wrote:

Rob- It's a trip for me to read stuff from people with sound minds whom I totally disagree with, it puts it all into perspective. I have to respect that you're out there and thinking about this stuff. There are no right or wrong answers, actions at this point are more important. Rob, you need to stop voting.


They can fly 3 planes into 3 buildings in 1 day but they can't blow up one fucking Texan?? Dumbfuck terrorists...



I just so happened to watch John Stewart's monologe after 9/11 a few minutes ago
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkuqoTseUPo
Heavy.

lol, you'll be somewhat amused that I voted for Gore in the first election w/ Bush Jr. I couldn't stand Kerry, so onward with Bush for the second term. LOL.

the great thing about our constitution is that we will have a whole new fresh POV to pick on when 2008 rolls around. Be thankful Jeb isn't interested in running. LOL.



rob.

On attaining an american empire, but in somewhat more convoluted terms, this is from PNAC (Project for a New American Century):

"Further, the process of transformation,
even if it brings revolutionary change, is
likely to be a long one, absent some
catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a
new Pearl Harbor. "

-Page 51 of the following document:

http://www.newamericancentury.org/Rebui ... fenses.pdf

Folks, these are the people calling the shots, and this is the plan they are enacting.
Regardless of what happened on 911, this is what your leaders are trying to achieve, from their own mouths.

I'd just like to say I respect robtronik for defending his views, although I don't agree with them, and I think this type of dialogue is a good thing, no matter what kind of forum it's on. People from vastly different places and backgrounds sharing their views can only be beneficial. As long as people stay civil that is.

cheers,

grb

P.S. I read that popluar mechanics article a while ago and it is useless. It debunks nothing. I was expecting much more to be honest. If that's the best defense of the official story, there is some big time mass denial going on.

knotkranky wrote: We maybe living in the best of times

My friend, America's standard of living peaked in 1972.

I'd just like to echo grb's shoutout to rob and others who are keeping this discourse (mostly) civil. Cheers all.

deva wrote: Who planned the anthrax attacks? Why did the anthrax get sent only to the democratic senators who were questioning the Patriot Act, and to the media? Isn't it odd that the anthrax letters went to Congress at just the right time to shut it down when the Patriot Act was to be voted on? Same with the Supreme Court. The anthrax used was from a top secret US facility. (Ft. Detrick).

When was this concluded? I know they had some guy from that facility under investigation, but not that the anthrax had been traced to there. I seem to recall that it was not adequately 'weaponized' in the way that it would be if it were not crudely manufactured. [edit] that sentence barely made sense... let me try again.... what I recall reading is that if it were actually the real militarized germ, it would have been processed to be more effective, that it would have been picked up and dispersed more rapidly by the ventilation system.

Hey, like I said before, no answers to certain questions about 911....

My personal belief is that Bin Ladin is winning this, at least as far as what he wanted to accomplish.
If you examine what he wants, and examine what is happening, you will agree.
Bin ladin wants the middle east to rise up against the west, and unite in a struggle against the infidels. He wants a blatant US/foriegn military prescience in the middle east to accomplish this. the US attacking a country over there, and having a hard time securing it etc. is perfect. A non fundamentalist dictatorship being toppled like Saddams regime is perfect.
An immediate halting of further terrorist attacks works in his favor too, let US atrocities ignite hatred in the hearts of middle eastern youth.

Israel in war, America threatening Iran, the whole thing is as if he planned it.
I'm serious about this, terrorists are only created when a people feel like there is no other alternative to living with their beliefs and feeling of autonomy. Terrorists are created when a foreign presence occupies a nation.

Whether or not the elections were totally democratic etc. doesn't matter, if US military personal are present it doesn't feel like freedom. I know that if I had to walk past a soldier with a gun who spoke another language, and knew that my intent was to vote for whoever was against the military presence, ( I don't think they had that choice though, can't recall hearing about a candidate that was calling for immediate US withdrawal? ) , I might just not show.....
Wonder how much of a tax will be levied on them for our services?

What would the military do if they voted in a president who was friendly with Iran, and called for immediate US withdrawal?

Bin Ladin is winning this so far.

sometims i lose it and think as a first step the US should nuke Texas, except my sister lives there.

Along with me